Zac Wilkerson

Full episode transcript, auto-generated from the audio and lightly formatted (verbatim, not edited).

Purple. [Music] That's also a thing today. We were talking about marketing. Maybe you have to uh you have to find a condition that you have.

That's a hip thing to do nowadays. Okay. You know, or like a uh I got there's plenty of that at my house, buddy. Plenty of what?

Uh neurode divergence. Is that what it's called? Yeah. My wife is uh we think she's like autistic.

She's definitely ADHD. Okay. Like hardcore. like at the highest level.

Um like you get a ribbon. Well, my oldest is my oldest uh has some neurode divergence. Uh and typically when they're really young, a lot of kids the first uh diagnosis they get is ADHD, especially if they're autistic. I feel like they've gotten better at It's much better than the last 20 years.

Yeah. Like they're you seems like there's older people I think there's older people that might be that they just never got brother. I think it's funny like uh I see all the these uh every once in a while see I like history stuff and so they'll talk about like some inventor or writer or statesman or something and they talk about how they're you know they've got all these crazy habits and but they're super productive or whatever wicked creative and then you see a comments like oh sure autism didn't start till the 90s or whatever they say and like cuz they're talking about this guy it's like that guy was clearly neurode divergent of some type. I don't know a ton about it.

Okay. But in a way it seems like it's just finding a way to describe somebody who's just operating in like a different way. Well, with neurode divergence specifically. So part of this is that there's quite a bit of that in my family in both me and my wife's family.

But my wife is a mental health professional. She's a she's a children's therapist. She works at She works at a children's hospital. Oh my god.

In the emergency room in the psychology department. Holy cow. So, she's seen some stuff and we talk about it all the time because that's kind of her wheelhouse, you know, and now, like you said, it's more of a it's more of a common topic now because people are actually talking about it. You know, there were years when people didn't talk about it like Yeah.

Or like if somebody had some sort of problem, you just write them off as being crazy, right? Yeah, they're dumb. They're the R word, whatever you want to say. Like, and those people got kind of sorted and segregated away pretty quick.

And it wasn't part of normal, you know, the R word. Yeah. So, this So, this is interesting. There's certain words that like they're offensive, but like with intent, like if you were to call somebody that.

Yeah. But if you just said the word [expletive] like it's not like Well, in it's all it all comes in intent like you said. Yeah, it depends like um well, I mean there's terms there's terms that like we kind of grow out of especially like I try to take my cues from uh like the medical community or like uh medical professionals and stuff and since I live with one you know uh she's corrected me on a lot of things you know I'm countries that color green so I came from just speaking plain and that's not a common thing in polit society is just speaking plain. No.

Does that make sense? Definitely. And so learning how to speak not just plain but pro uh what's the word? More well maybe like just be thoughtful.

Thoughtful but uh I would put it kind of like um when I first started writing songs um man I used to I can't remember who said it now and I feel bad. I used to uh subscribe to all these like songwriter and guitar magazines when I was a kid. Yeah. like um I started working full-time at 12.

Uh and so like I got over toys and stuff pretty quick and music was always the thing. So by about 12 or 13 for Christmas I just got like clothes and I wanted I got like six or seven uh magazine subscriptions back when they would mail them to your door, you know. And there was a songwriter years ago that I saw in some article. I think it was American Songwriter magazine cuz I man I used to read that cover to cover every month.

But uh some songwriter said it's about finding uh the best word every time. and like kind of mentally working through that in my own way realizing uh throughout my life that finding the best words it's kind of like a superpower because a lot of a lot of interpersonal problems are really communication problems definitely. But if you can communicate like in a super profound, direct, like hit the bullseye every time type of way, it's uh well, it cuts down on you being misunderstood, but it also allows whoever you're talking to uh cure you better, you know, and you get closer to the solution. You get closer to the reality every time.

So negative words though, like cuz like the word [expletive] would be used typically to like as like I guess a slur in ways to like say somebody's not smart. It's derision, man. It's an assault. It's an insult.

You know what I'm saying? Correct. So I guess but I also like I also have people in my extended family who uh when I was young we all uh you know the phrase when I was young was they're mentally [expletive] and that wasn't oh that wasn't inappropriate that because of intent. It's intent.

Yeah. Totally. You're using the word and now we don't even and now even uh with the best of intentions I don't think the that phrase or word is used anymore. It's uh mentally delayed or handicapped.

Handicapped is definitely but handicapped is actually that's gone. It's like handicapable or whatever. Well, I guess that's the thing is like how far down it do you go cuz like even the word like idiot, right? like the like the original use of that term was like right idiocy or like mor or like [expletive] moronic or like uh they're like all I guess I don't know derivations of like exactly there's years ago that was meant to talk about a specific type of person so I don't I don't really have an issue with like societ because the whole idea is like trying to be thoughtful and like not maybe sometimes you are purposfully trying to hurt somebody's feelings but well that happens quite a bit obviously I think that I think the main thing is like I said, it's about trying to find the best word.

Yeah. But I think that es and flows a little bit. It absolutely does. Society like I'm cool.

I'm okay with that. Well, I'll tell you this. I use the word idiot every time I drive. You know what I mean?

Every time I get on the highway, that word is spilling off my list. But see, there could be a point when you're like 80. Maybe idiot is the new word that it's like you can't say idiot, dude. It could come back.

And then you're like the weird old guy that's like what? We used to say it all the time. Well, there's lots of there's a lots of words your grandpa used to say we can't say anymore. You know what I mean?

Yeah. It just it just changes with the times, you know, and where you're at geographically. Definitely. And I think a big part of it is being aware of where you're at.

Not to bring it back to geology, but is that right? Or geography. Oh, I thought you were being funny, which was funny. Uh.

No, see, that's my go-to when people like they it takes a second to like tap into like what I got going on. It's usually a bit of a delay. Uh but when uh we talk about math or whatever, like my go-to joke is like, "Yeah, I've just like never been really great at geology." And like people will just sit there and like what?

And it usually I usually just try to go right by it. Yeah. I tr See, I that's my type of humor, too, because that's the best. What is that?

Is that dry? I'll tell you what it is. It's using words as a toy, which is words have always been my favorite toy. But then people get uncomfortable because they don't know if you know like so they just don't know.

I get that all the time. My wife is like they don't know you're joking. They're So is that dryness? They didn't catch the joke.

You know what it is? Um it is uh I think it's a difference between uh smart intelligent humor. Okay. And you know kind of slapstick humor.

Yeah. You know what I mean? I don't love the slapstick stuff. There's elements of it that's funny.

Most intelligent people don't like Did you just I sure did, buddy. Most intelligent people don't uh don't really get Let me Let me have a moment. Yeah. Right.

But it's okay. Let's get it. But uh that's a You know, people who look, I'll put it this way. You have to be smart enough to know that I made a dumb joke.

So that actually is really interesting about smart comedy. It starts to come off like it's just really dumb, right? And then if like once you engage your brain, you realize, wait, he's telling like multiple layered jokes here. It's the way he got there is smart.

Yeah. The final results really stupid. Yeah. There's a lot of comedians like that who uh they sell it so well that I don't think people even realize how smart of a joke was just told.

That's a great point cuz I don't like telegraphed smart humor. No. Like if you're going to get up there and give me a monologue to like try to show. So like Carlin always struck me like that.

George Carlin. Yeah. It was real preachy. It was pretentious.

Yeah. And it was smart, but it's like you don't want to hear that guy at a party, right? Well, I think uh cynicism, especially in comedy, cynicism um it's a hard cell after a while cuz we're there to laugh at the absolute horrible and disgusting uh situations that we're in because that's how we disarm them. We laugh at them.

We find the humor, right? But I think uh same way with music, you know, we're there to like with musicians, I think our job is to find the beauty in the ugly, right? Or in the mundane. Or in the mundane.

Exactly. We're trying to find the diamonds in the rough. We're trying to find those, you know, what's where's the tiny flake of gold in this muddy, nasty river, right? And I think people like comedians, writers, songwriters, musicians, all those people.

Uh that's really what that's our power. That's our superpower. Yeah. Because it's that nasty muddy river that other people walk by and go, I don't want any or like um like cinematographers and videographers.

I say cinematographers cuz like I don't like the idea that just be like I've got video cameras here. I agree. Good grief. Like we're just trying to hold it together.

You know, there's not like cinematography going on. But at the same time, the other side of that is any Joe Blow with a camera might be able to get lucky and capture some beauty. Yes, I know. Yeah.

And then whe And I think that has more to do with the idea that beauty exists and not so much the talent of other people. That's a really interesting thought. It's more about the beauty is everywhere you look for it. Dude, I So I have like almost zero reverence towards like songwriting in a way.

Okay. Um, like I hate the idea that like I'm a songwriter and then there's people that listen to me do my craft. Okay. I think everybody's got it in them to a degree.

Maybe not everybody, but most more people there's a lot of people that don't know they do that have it in them. I would agree with that. I think there's people who have words I think there's people who have words that they don't uh use them as much as they could. Yeah.

And I've talked to those people about that. I agree. Yep. So, uh, you know, I would I would agree with that to an extent.

Um, there are people who absolutely have the spark, whatever it is. And I think you know I think you know what we're talking about. We they just see things a little different. Yeah.

And I think musicians are some of the people that like the spark kind of gets worn on your sleeve most of the time cuz our spark has this very um obvious very outward display. We play music, other people listen. It's a pretty simple transaction. You know what I mean?

Um I think a lot of people have that spark, especially the people we operate with. And there are other people I believe that have that same spark that have not developed it. You know what I mean? Um I run into like uh fans and stuff at shows and they're like, "Oh my god, I just can't believe you."

And I'm like, "I'm not special." Yeah. It probably makes people feel better if they believe that we're somehow special or different. Here's another really uncomfortable take.

finish this thought cuz you like I think a lot of people who are listening to hate this so let me get this out there I think a lot of people who are fans of us they would like to believe it's comforting to believe there's something special about us right the reality is the only thing that's special about us is we put in the time that's basically what I was going to say and that's very damning for a lot of people because then they have to contend with the understanding that they're just not putting in the time. They're just not putting in the effort. Right? I got a buddy uh he is the head of the 3D printing lab at the Johnson Space Center in Houston.

Okay? He's got he's one of the most decorated engineers at NASA because he prints a part for almost every mission that NASA's done for the last decade and a half, two decades, he's made a part on it. So he's a part of dozens of missions. He comes to my shows and he and his wife are like, "Oh, you're just it's amazing."

You know, but I nerd out about what he does. And I've tried to explain to him it's you put in time. You put in the grind. You put in the effort and you became this freaking amazing guy who does this amazing stuff, but there's not necessarily that much that's special about you.

Now he's uh he is definitely of above average intelligence, right? So maybe that's special, but at the same time uh I know that there's people at NASA who aren't that much smarter than me, who probably have a job because they put in the time, they put in the effort, they did the work, you know. Yeah. finding out somebody just put in more work than you to achieve the talent or whatever you want to call it is very uh um it's exposing it exposes your lack of uh dedication to it.

I would agree you know and uh and it kind and it and specifically with music there is a there's like a magic that we all like to believe in. I absolutely believe that. Yeah. And there's a part of me that knows that it does exist to a degree, but I guess I guess it's nowadays I've done it.

I mean, I'm sitting here like talking like I'm a veteran, but you are. I mean, no, but I don't want to come off like that. Um, but to get any sort of sustained any level of success comes with just such like just it's a war of attrition. it and like hard work and just really confronting some of your like innermost insecurities and being really honest with like how do I get better?

What am I bad at? How do I improve here? And then that's where you get years further down the road and people will be like what a talent because they want to believe Yeah. They want to believe you were born just this completely formed y producer, writer, guitar player, all this stuff.

Yeah. Yeah. And it's not so but like at the deepest core of this is where I do believe I can't remember exactly what you ju what you had just said that was like so profound about it being like uh discovering you it's like you discover the creativity rather than it's not the actual person being it's not about it's not it's honestly not about you and me it's the fact that beauty exists outside of us beauty exists outside of us and we like just kind of discover it in a certain way and yeah I would say that or not even necessarily discover it because people have been discovering it for Okay. How old is Homo sapiens?

300,000 years, right? We like communicate it in a unique way. That's it. Okay.

And uh I really like uh have you ever read the book Sapiens? No, sir. Uh I told you I don't know how to read. Oh, I'll read it to you later.

It's the pret it's the pretentious the pretentious illiterate. Yes. the pretentious. No.

Um, no, that's a pretty it's a pretty good book. There's a there's a lot of things I can't jive with cuz he's fairly biased to his own um ideas and things and so there's a few little ideas that get for me they get a little sideways because he's trying to push it into his little pigeon hole. But, uh, one of the things he talks about is, you know, uh, shared myth and like that's one of the things that allowed civilization to happen. Like there was at one point there was a tribe of uh you know uh homminids that were on the side of some mountain, right?

And they were all just kind of going through their daily lives, hunting, gathering, whatever they did. Uh but somewhere along the way they were able to share the myth they're like, "Hey, this mountain uh this is where the spirit of the elk inhabits." And so now we become the people of the elk, right? And now you've got this group of hundred or so uh not necessarily unintelligent but univilized people who are able to be civil to each other because of this shared myth, right?

Because they all believe in the spirit of the elk or whatever. And that and that's like in modern times we've just traded that for oh you root for the Cowboys I root for the Cowboys or oh you like Jared Morris I like Jared Morris or oh you watch this TV show I watch that TV show and so we have these shared myths that kind of help people kind of pair off into these little tribes or groups you know and music is definitely one of those and with musicians specifically we all kind of live under this shared myth uh whether it's spoken or not. I think a lot of it is just uh what we were talking about before we sat down is like uh most people don't chase their subconscious, but I think a lot of songwriters that's something that we have a hard time not doing because we're constantly chasing that down. You ever find it annoys people?

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's funny.

I had someone tell me years ago, uh, they basically just remarked like, well, the idea was like, you're pretty much always in the deep water, huh? Like, yeah, I can't really come up. You know what I mean? CS Lewis used to say, you'll never convince someone who's seen the ocean that a mud puddle is fun.

That's a sum that's Say it. Say it again. You'll never convince someone who's seen the ocean that a mud puddle is fun. And that's a that's a that's a summary of that.

That's not a direct quote, but I think that's I think that's very real, you know, like so it's all based on perspective. I think it's based on perspective and experience and how far you've how far you've uh plumbed yourself. How far how deep have you gone on yourself? How Yeah.

What's the what's the deepest darkest bottom of the ocean of yourself that you've been to? And I think also people's personal experiences. You know, my dad my dad was in Iraq when my 21-year-old was born. And uh he's still a great guy.

He's definitely different coming back from a war zone. And that's a pretty stark, pretty uh profound example, I guess. Um, but it I think it puts the message across because once you've seen that, you have a hard time going back and go, "Oh, well, let's see what Cardi B put on Twitter today." You know what I mean?

You have a hard time once you've seen the ocean going backwards. Yeah. Or like your avoidance of yourself is doesn't make me pretentious. Absolutely.

and your ability to only go shin deep, it's not going to stop me from having just the tip of my nose out of the water. I see it a lot in songwriting. There's some dudes who are really great at just saying what's at the like the top of their mind. Uh, and just really letting that just come out.

And it'll come out seemingly like real plain spoken and direct. Sure. Which is cool and sometimes very necessary. Often times those people will in my personal experience will sometimes um maybe give you if you're if they if they perceive that you're overthinking something, they'll kind of use it as a dig and like, man, you just got to let it roll.

Like it's just not that complicated. you just got to say what you mean and mean what you say and like don't overthink it. And it's like well there's kind of two sides to this cuz they'll also just kind of jibber jab a bunch of stuff off and it could be really profound, right? If you were to like unpack it.

Yeah. Um and you might even end up if you were to unpack it, you might even say it the exact same way that they said it, right? It's just you know why. Yeah.

But like they could say something profound and just because you don't know because you'll ask them like, "What does that mean? What did you just say?" And they're like, "I don't know. I just said it."

Yeah. And it's like me unpacking that and understanding why you said it doesn't make it more meaningful or less meaningful. It just like helps me understand it. But I So some of those people that I've been around, it's like they're almost scared to unpack it in a way.

It's like it'll take out some of the gusto if they understand what they actually said. Yeah. And I'm like, well, because in my experience, unpacking it sometimes leads to like another song, right? You know, you know, for me, uh, and I can't speak for everybody that you're talking about.

I know some of those people, you know, um that just kind of let it roll or whatever. Most of the people that I that are my peers and stuff, I know that they uh stress over every single word. You know what I mean? So, well, yeah.

And so, so sometimes you can go too far that way. I don't know that you are going too far. Okay. Sometimes I don't Well, I don't know.

I don't think I honestly I don't know that you can go too far with that. Um, you know, when I was a kid and I listened to a lot of music and was trying to find inspiration to, you know, play my own music or whatever, the things that inspired me the most were songs. I tell people this all the time. It's like, I've always been a fan of music that helps.

You're having a horrible day. You're in the car on the way home. I was like, man, there's a song that I want to hear because inside that song are the feelings that I'm feeling and that song is going to help me uh process my feelings, get my feelings out, however, right? Um, so my like you're talking about people who don't necessarily go deep.

Like I think about times when been driving along in my car and I have to pull over the side of the road because somebody's lying in a song wrecked shop and I got to pull over and get a hold of myself for a second. Not saying I'm like balling or whatever, but I'm like, "Okay, okay, they're right. That makes sense." You know?

And so now when I'm writing songs, that's what I'm looking for. I am trying to put a knife in the heart every single song. Yeah. You know what I mean?

Even the fun ones, I want there to be something in there that you get nicked while you're having a good time and go, "Oh, I got me." You know what I mean? I That's what I'm looking for. So, like in a in a emotionally pro provoking way.

Yeah. Okay. Yes. And no.

I mean, I want you [Music] to, how do I say this? I want you to step out of reality for just a second. The physical reality, I want you to step out of it for just a second. And even if I even if the whole pro process takes two seconds, I want to pull you from your boat of your comfort zone, drag you to the very bottom, rub your nose in the sand at the bottom of the ocean, then take you back in about two seconds.

That's what I want to do because that's what that's what I look for in music. I want music that does that to me, right? Yeah. Walt Wilkins songs, just about every song has a line that slaps me across the face real quick.

Yeah. You know, wakes me up like, "Oh, oh [expletive] he's right." Yeah. Yeah.

I got to That's right. What am I doing? What am I doing? You know what I mean?

It like it kind of pops you back into reality of like, "Hey, this is Life is hard. Life is crazy. It's chaotic, but it's beautiful." So, I've I probably why I haven't gone far enough down the rabbit hole on like maybe some like Guy Clark Towns Vanzant stuff like that world um is because the music doesn't move me quite enough.

Okay. The actual musical component and the melodic components. Sure. Not that stuff has to be like overly dramatic or anything, but uh and there's parts of it at times that the simplicity I can I can dig.

Absolutely. Yeah, but it's like you can have the most epic lyrics because ultimately I'm listening to music. That's why I'm listening to I'm not listening to spoken word poetry that has a place and I like some of that stuff. Uh cuz like I like the cowboy poetry thing too, but it's poetry.

I'm not listening to it for musical component. Yeah. Um, and so there's some stuff that feels a little distant for me because I just can't like it's like the lyrics can just be super epic, but if the music isn't maybe pulling me in that same area on the on uh to counter that as well is like there's songs that I can almost I can feel more emotions than they're actually even saying just because of the music and the lyrics can actually be relatively shallow. Sure.

But they just seem to like be so profound just because the music is so great, I think. And maybe if they the lyrics were over the top, it might not it might steal from the music. Yeah. Yeah.

In a way. Yeah, maybe not. Well, I think it's a balance, man. You know, our job is to our job is to show, like I said, those tiny little beautiful things in the middle of all the ugly.

And you know I Picasso and Da Vinci, they're both masters, but they got different strokes. Definitely. And so I think uh there are people who their specialty, their strength is lyrics. There's people whose specialty and strength is instrumentation, you know, uh production, genre, however you want to say it.

Um, and to me, I don't really um, man, I don't really care as long as there's uh, some type of uh, there's got to be an emotional investment. I've run into music, obviously, I think we all have, where it's like, man, I don't feel anything in this. You know what I mean? He is.

It's like, I see them up there and they're working hard and they're jumping around, screaming their head off, and they're playing the dog out of that guitar. Still don't feel either. I'm not feeling much. Yeah.

Like the emotional content got left out. And I think that can come through words. I think that can come through production. I think it can come through a steel solo.

But uh to me, as long as I think I can uh feel it or recognize it, you know, and partly part of that has to do with me, too, cuz I'm also just an ear. my ear might be plugged that day or whatever, you know? I'm just I'm still just a listener. Gosh, because that happens with my own music.

I'll listen to it the day after I was so jazzed on it and I'm like, "This is not Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, I think you know what's you know what's funny about that too is that you can still be wrong. You can be wrong about your own the second day not liking it.

I could be wrong that day." Yep. Could have been right the first day, wrong the second day. Exactly.

Vice versa. You know, there's songs uh there's a song pieces that I put on my first record and um I started writing that song even before I met my wife and it took me years to kind of just piece it all together. Uh but when I finished it and I was making my first record with Walt Wilkins, uh he said, "No, man. This is one of the songs we need to put on there.

There's people who will need this song." And uh I didn't really agree with him at all. Uh it's one of those songs that had been around so long for me that it wasn't cool or new anymore. I'd beat my head against the wall so long on it.

It was like, dude, it was I'm lucky I got this thing finished, you know, and I'm not even sure it's I'm still not even sure it's finished, you know? But Walt said, "No, this song has legs and there's people who can use this song, so let's put it on that first EP." And we did. And almost every show I play, someone asked for that song.

Obviously, I was wrong. I was wrong. Like there's people who've told me like I had a drummer a long time ago when I first made that record and um uh his dad came to every show we played and when we play that song he'd hear the first two bars of the intro and stand up and walk out the bar every time. And I asked I uh I noticed it and I was going to ask the drummer about it one time and then uh after a show one time we were finally driving home or whatever and he said, "Man, uh he just basically told me, "My dad uh my dad loves that song, but he hates that you play it live."

I was like, "What do you mean?" He's like, "Because he can't take it. It hits something. It's a nick somewhere and it nicks him every time."

It's like, "Oh, okay." Do you have a specific one that does that to you? Like of one of your own songs, the NYX me. Do you do you potentially have one that you have a hard time like getting through it live?

Oo goodness. There's a song called Love Rescued Me that I wrote. I put it on my TikTok a few weeks or a week ago or so, but uh the stories that people have told me around that song, [Music] uh it's really heavy. Like when I'm standing up there on stage and I'm playing that song, there's this kind of uh feeling maybe uh like [Music] I'm I've stopped being entertainment for a moment.

This is more about there's somebody in this room who needs this song, you know, and even on nights when it feels like uh not a lot of people are listening. I'll play that song and someone will come to the merch table or whatever afterward and like, I'm so glad you played that. It was the only song I wanted to hear tonight. And let me tell you my super harrowing story about how that song got me and my family through.

and they just tell me the like I don't even know like I don't tell most of these stories in public because it almost feels like it's uh inappropriate cuz some of the stuff the stories that they've told you Yeah. Cuz some of the stuff is it's [expletive] intense. Really? Yeah.

It's intense. like uh and I have several songs that people say those things about. Um there's a song I have called Love Me Like You're Losing Me. I've had a lot of couples come up and tell me like, "Hey man, uh you know, we were about done and my wife sent me this song and we worked it out."

That was two years ago. It's like, you know, when you're on the stage and a large part of what you're doing is just trying to sell t-shirts and then people are like, you're responsible for my family standing together and we had this kid after we got back together. So, things like that, you know, and so now that's what I mean. That's why it's hard for me to play in mud puddles because I understand that uh I have been given songs.

I don't I don't really take ownership of the songwriting. I mean, yeah, they're my songs and, you know, they're mine to make money off of that. You know, there's that part of it, but there's also the part of uh I also know who I am as a person. And a lot of the songs that I've been given, you know, however you want to say it, I was given them by God, by the universe, by my experience, whatever you want to say.

uh whatever place those songs come from, I just get to be the steward of them. And that's one of the big reasons I feel that way is because of the stories people tell me. I it seems like too if you get to such a level of popularity that attachment I mean I'm fearful saying this because I don't know but it seems like that like attachment and connection that you're having to like somebody telling you that story or hearing that story about your music seems like there's a level of popularity that your reaction might get lost like the way you feel about that. Oh yeah, at a level of popularity it seems like in my observation some people kind of lose that and I hope that's I have a hope that's not inevitable but I wonder if it gets to just such a I guess my point is it's such a it's such a beautiful thing.

I think it's something money can't buy. like you're always wanting like some more success and to be bigger and stuff and I think that comes at a cost and I think one of those costs is like is like that you're getting right there. I think it can be. I don't know if it's completely mutually exclusive, but I will say that hearing those stories, uh, the most profound and hardcore ones, um, it's ruined me in some ways for the business because my idea of success now is not [Music] uh my idea of success is probably very different than most people's.

It's probably a little bit more like metaphysical now. It's absolutely metaphysical. It's absolutely because I'm to me what will for my intentions for what I want uh what success is to me is songs that hit people songs that nick people uh and knowing that a lot of times that's not what sells the big rooms. You know, there's um it's that whole idea between uh you know, McDonald's and the little family-owned steakhouse.

Yeah. You know, McDonald's sells a lot of burgers. They sell a lot that's like the you know, I don't eat McDonald's and I'm sorry someone out there loves it, but like that's kind of lowest common denominator food, right? Mhm.

There's not a lot of people, not as many people who uh say to themselves, "No, I need a great aged prime gradea Angus sirloin. I want something very specific that is valuable. It's not easily come by, right? There's a lot you have to put a lot more effort into it beforehand so you get this specific thing at the end."

And uh I mean I if I had to save my life, I probably could sit down and write a party album and we could sell a lot of Bud Light. Uh but that's just not where my brain goes anymore. You know, you have these people tell me these stories. Like there was one lady, she said uh her dad was dying of cancer and he was in hospice and he was basically cat catatonic but awake and they played Love Rescued Me while he was on his deathbed and they got him back for like 10 minutes and while the song played He started talking to him.

Oh my gosh. And then that was the last day they had him. Yeah. And he was gone that night.

And how that song was like instrumental in like giving closure to the family, how that song um uh helped them heal a lot of stuff. A lot of family history got covered in this very short time. And those people honestly believe that song was what broke, you know, broke the veil. Uh, I can't say that.

I, you know, maybe I was just lucky, you know, if, you know, maybe if the sh the shuffle had been a different way, it would have been Running Down to Dream by Tom Petty that came on when that happened, you know. Yeah. Well, it's nice to hear the way that you describe it, too, cuz there's not like a uh, you know, it's there's not like a Some people can start to take themselves maybe too serious like a lot of artists can where it's like that's why I try not to take ownership of these things. Yeah, I feel you on that.

Just a steward, you know? Yeah. Well, yeah. Steward.

So, you're like you're deeply respectful of like what it could do. But you're also not like walking around poking out your chest saying like everything I touch, everything I write down is going to change lives, you know? Yeah. I mean I mean that's the goal.

I want to change lives. That's the goal. That's the mission statement. Uh from the very beginning is I want to change some people's lives.

I want to mess them up in the best way possible. Yeah. I wonder if knowing also that like I also know what happens in here. Yeah.

And knowing that if I get it, it probably didn't come from me. I just was the conduit, you know. So, is that a specific spiritual thing that you're referencing or is it think maybe? Yeah.

Yeah. Is it a god figure? Is it a energy? Is it a what is it?

Isn't that the question though? Isn't that the question? Uh well, well, I think well uh I mean for you person for me personally I think there's only one source of creativity. Okay.

And that's God. If you don't want to believe in God, um, the laws of nature are pretty self-evident. And if you want to get really theological, the laws of nature can exist outside of God. So, they're the same thing.

And so, you're saying God like a uh I'm talking about like, you know, out like creator outside of space, time. Yes. Matter. Yeah.

Okay. Creator. God. Yeah.

Okay. Yeah. And I think one of the most uh godly things you can do is create makes make things make beautiful things that are useful, right? That are for the good of your brothers and sisters out here.

Um, so I definitely come at it from that aspect that I'm just Look, Adam didn't Adam didn't take uh credit for the garden, but he took his job as the protector seriously, right? Sure. Yeah. But also, Adam got kicked out.

That means he's not he's not the gardener. He is a gardener. Right. Well, yeah.

That's why Satan got kicked out. That's how I feel. Like I'm not the songwriter. I am a songwriter.

Okay. And to me that drives me in several ways. Like if um I've had it happen where there was a song I had an idea for and I thought, "Oh, that's a cool song. Maybe I'll write that."

Or even there's times when I've had an idea for a song and I thought, I don't know, and then months later, year later, someone else has written that song and I'll hear their song. I thought like, yeah, crap. I got the memo and I passed it on. Whoa.

And that's how I feel. And it's not necessarily like I don't really think it's all about me. I think I think it's more about uh the most special thing about me is that my ears are open. That's it.

That's it. Is that I listen and I look constantly. That's the only thing that's special about me. Uh are you a youngest child?

No, I'm middle. You are? How many siblings you got? I got an older brother and a younger brother.

I've got a I've got a running working theory. Oh, do you? On creativity. I mean, it's nothing like overly profound.

It's just the idea that like typically most of the creatives I meet or I say creatives like uh the ones that I like the good ones uh are typically youngest children. Youngest children. Okay. And my theory is that they spent just a ton of time observing.

True. Go sit in the corner. Go entertain yourself. Shut up and listen.

Yeah. So they did a lot of observing. Yes. Oddly enough, a lot of them end up being kind of loud, gregarious personalities.

I was going to say uh all the youngest children creatives I know there's uh they have a knack for getting attention because they had to learn it when they were kids. Oh, that too. They had to learn, hey, come over here. Okay.

Right. They had a knack, but they also were comfortable being the center of the attention. They're used to the whole family. Yeah.

all having their eyes and ears trained to do they typically like in your experience do they have to be do they have the a type thing where it's like it I've got to be the center of attention I think a lot of them do okay uh but again I think that comes down to maybe psychology and like listen I had this conversation that I was telling you I had a long conversation with a buddy of mine who's long time musician uh known him for years and years and we were just talking about the process and one thing we kept talking about is there's a lot of reasons people do this. There's a lot of reasons people do this. Um, and if I'm going to be cynical and straight on, there's people who do this because they want attention. There's people who do this because they think it's a quick buck.

Yeah, show biz. There's people who do this because uh there's something inside of them that needs a box checked or a hole filled that says, "Okay, now that I've made this, now I feel like I'm cool or useful or whatever, any of those things." Um, so that's a that's a big thing for me is one thing I'm always looking at whenever I see any musician is I'm kind of trying to see past the eyeballs. I'm like, why are you doing this?

What's in there? What's the reason you're doing this? And uh most of the people that I connect with that I like Yeah. you can see it.

It's like there's people I'm doing this cuz music won't leave me alone, right? Yeah. Adam and I were talking about that exact thing. That's the people I grab on to.

Yeah. It's like prison. Jam Lyn Wilson said something years ago and it I've carried it with me ever since. She said, "There are those who can and there are those who must."

Yeah. Right. Yeah. I know.

I just am so I think it's part of how I was raised with my family. Okay. that I just so it's almost like I just so I'm so scared about uh taking anything I do too serious because there's going to be somebody to try to knock you off your like high horse. That definitely sounds like a little brother.

I'm so worried about Well, like I had two older sisters so they were super cool. Okay. But like just cousins and relatives and stuff. It's like my family's like you got to learn how to freaking take some heat, right?

Talk some trash. Give it. And I'm talking like it's not even talking trash. It's not in playful fun.

Like it's being mean. Sure. And you got to learn how to freaking water off a duck's back and just shoot it right back. But like if there even a whiff of like, oh, you're a little feel pretty good about that, huh?

Like we're going to decimate you. Get a little big for your britches. Yeah. And so I think I have like this almost just kind of like white knuckle whenever somebody's like I you know it's not something I can do it's something I must do.

I'm like oh no somebody's about to destroy me. But yeah right but it's funny because coming from a middle I'm a middle child you know uh and I don't know if you know all the stereotypes about the middle child you know the middle child Yeah. is typically treated the worst. They get the least attention.

That's part of the bit though is that they think they're treated the worst. Well, uh, see, that's the bit of a young kid is because a young kid thinks that the middle kid just thinks that, right? It's like, you know, I started working full-time when I was 12. I bought my own truck.

Uh, you know, then the youngest one didn't have to do any of that. Oh, he Yeah. It's funny because I started working full-time at 12 and uh I asked my folks when he was when does my little brother have to get a job? You know, and he's got to hear this.

He's going to be so mad. He's like, "That's not what happened." Uh but, you know, I remember having a conversation with my mom like, "Well, when does he have to start working all the time?" You know, my mom was like, "He's only 15.

It's a little young for that." And I'm thinking, what did you I've been working full-time for three years. Yeah. You know, so it was his younger brother, right?

Yeah. I have a younger and older brother. I think it does change a little bit, too. I had two older sisters, so it's like the standards were so different cuz just cuz we were That's a big difference, too.

Genders. Yeah. Like it was uh that's a big difference. You know, junior and senior in high school.

I just came and went as I pleased. You know, I'd leave in the middle of the night kind of thing. And sure, it was more lax purely just cuz my parents are older and they're tired and I'm the last one to graduate. So, it's like to a degree they're like freaking wore out.

Um, and then there's another side. He's like, "Rachel, like you were a girl. Like, you're out in the middle of the night. I don't know where you're at.

It's I'm sorry. It's different. It's different. It's freaking different.

Like, I got to worry about what Jared's doing. Like, not as much like what's being done to him kind of, you know what I mean? Exactly." And that's just like a reality of life, unfortunately.

It is. Yeah. Uh, so some of that stuff is like And dude, my dad was funny. He would like when we were young, I remember he would uh he would purposefully buy one of the kids like more presents for Christmas and then uh like wait for us to be snotty little kids and be like, "Why'd they get more?"

You know, and he'd be like, "Life's not fair. World's mean. Like, get over it." Yeah.

Stuff's going to happen that's just not like how you think it should happen, right? Get over it, bro. That sounds like My dad was in the army for 40 years. He worked for the co-op.

He was in the reserves for the last 20some of the of his army career. And so he worked for the co-op. And man, that's exactly how my childhood was. It was almost like can you can you love like with kids?

I don't have any children. So how many kids you got? I got three. So can you potentially Yeah, I feel like you could you could love them all the same while treating them differently.

You have to treat them different. Okay. Because they're different people. It'd be appropriate for you to treat them Yeah.

all exactly the same. That's where I think it gets weird. Yeah. Treat them all the exact same.

Why? Well, I'll tell you this. I had two brothers, so it was just three boys, three knucklehead boys in that house. So, there was a lot of things we got treated exactly the same on.

But then there was also things that were uh you know, more focused to us, I guess, if that makes sense. Uh looking back I don't really there were definitely things that shook out in a much different way because there were different expectations of all of us. Um but we're also very different people. So we needed to be handled different.

You know I'll say I'll say this. If my if my other brothers had been treated like me, my big brother would have just left and my little brother probably would have had a breakdown. Uh, but that was kind of the way that I needed to be handled in my folks eyes, you know, like I started working at Fela at 12 because we moved from we s we had a little farm in Buffalo, Oklahoma. We sold out uh the like very early spring of 93 and then by the summer my dad had taken another job with Farmland Incorporated.

So, we moved to this town called Extern, Nebraska, which is a little bay town, which Buffalo is a small town. I mean, it's like a thousand people. I think there's less than 3,000 people in the county, Harper County. It's the it's the county that's on the very end of the panhandle.

Um, there's nothing out there. And then we moved to this even smaller town, you know, and all new friends, all new school, all that stuff. And I had a really bad attitude about it. I was pretty shitty to be honest with you.

And [Music] uh not very long into that, my dad basically said, "Hey, uh you're going to start work this Saturday." And I got dropped off at this feed lot at like 6:30 in the morning and started working at the feed lot. And uh you know, my big brother and my little brother both worked there off and on, but I worked there the entire time we lived in Nebraska, which was three and a half years. Uh that was probably the correct thing for me because if not, I would have just sat around, felt sorry for myself.

At least at this point, I was up moving around, doing something, making a little money, learning some things, you know. What were you what were you doing at the feed lot? I mean, it was just me and another guy. Yeah.

Just a little It's like a little 800 custom feeder. So, okay. A lot of what I did was drive post holes. Yeah.

Yeah. A lot of that. He had a uh we when I was there, he built a new pin and um he had a little uh I want to say it was like a 6 inch augur that he put on the PTO. He collected these old he collected these old uh kind of vintage tractors that he that he had got from his dad and like his grandpa and stuff like that.

And so he kept them around and we kept them running and uh we painted them uh once in the time when I was there actually took all the tins off and did stuff like you know sanded them down bondo and put new primer and paint on them stuff like that. So, we had these old tractors and uh but the whole the whole operation was pretty hands-on, pretty very manual, you know, but he had this old uh 6-in augur and uh this pin was going to be on the outside and so he said, "We got to put we got to put uh a big fence out there so everything doesn't get out." I was like, "That makes sense." And I showed up the next day and there was this big uh semi flatbed dropping off railroad ties.

And the evening before he'd gone through with this little bitty augur and dropped the centers, right? And then I went behind with a sharpshooter and made the holes big enough to fit Yeah. fit a railroad tie. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. And then I was wrestling these railroad ties and dropping them in and sucks. He didn't want to pay for cement.

So I was out there with a with a big pry bar that had a flat tamping end on it, you know. So drop them in, throw in a couple inches, tamp it down, throw a few more inches of dirt, tamp it down, you know, and you just pack that. In Nebraska, they've got this. It's like this black clay.

It's like I mean it's hard clay and it is black. Black mud. Black mud. Yeah.

So yeah, they have some in Decar. Yeah. And then like north uh northeast of Decatur, it's all black mud, too. Okay.

Crumb like that area. Yeah. Yeah. If you get uh east of I35, like it's really nice.

Sandy Lom out there by Ray Roberts. And if you go west of there, it's all black mud. So like being a horseshoe like black mud is the worst. Yeah.

Oh yeah. It sets up in their feet like freaking concrete. Yes, it does. Yeah.

Well, you know, it's funny where we were, you know, I graduated high school from Sunray, Texas, which is up north of Amarillo. Uh, and kind of out there, it's really, it's once you get on top of the cap rock, you know, north of Gosh, I'd say it's about, man, where's the cap rock hit? It's somewhere between Vernon and Childris, I guess. And once you get on top of the cap rock, I'm sure there's going to be somebody that's like it's all that Sandom.

Once again, it always goes back to geography. We're back to geography. Well, I'll tell you where the cap rock. Really?

That's right. My granddaddy, he freaking chiseled the cap rock. That's right. He was out there when they put it down.

Tip of his pecker. Chiseled the cap rock. That's right. Where the water flows like wine.

That's right. Well, no, no water flows out there on the cap rock. That's the problem. No, but you know, uh, feed lot stuff was just it was just feed lot work.

you know, it was a little bitty little bitty operation. So, wasn't it was my big brother worked on a feed lot when we lived in Buffalo and that was a big feed lot, you know, 15,000 head or something. Yeah. So, you're like this.

No, he was on a he was on a horse all the time, you know, like riding pins and stuff like that. And so, when my dad said, "You're going to go work at a feed lot." I was like, "That's fine. Heck yeah."

Like, I grew up on a horse, you know, and I was like, "That's cool." So I, you know, I was actually excited because we had just sold our farm and our horses and all our animals and stuff. So I was like, "Oh, cool." Get out there.

There's not a They're not so much as a four-wheeler out there. It's like, "Oh, you need to get to that pin." Weird. Start to walking.

You know, you got boots on, don't you? And so just a whole lot of, you know, running. It's a feed lot, so you run feed and you doctor every once in a while. And It's a whole lot of shovel operation.

You know, it's so funny to meet uh specifically music artists that like come from a I mean, I don't really even say country background. Like most everybody I ever meet comes from some sort of rural type background, but like more specifically like livestock and maybe like a cowboy egg. Like an actual egg. Yeah.

Yeah. Like cowboy like a cowboy background. It's just so funny like typically those music artists that I meet are so kind of weary about I guess they don't make like a conscious effort to not let anybody know that they come from that but it's almost like they just kind of like I don't know you find out in a funny way. They're not like out there with their freaking starched up Yeah.

They don't wear chaps to Walmart. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

And they're not out there with like I'm the most cowboy person around. That uh that song that's big right now, the me more cowboy than you song. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Very funny. But I guess it's funny.

It's like I always get to find out. Yeah. Uh and then their music doesn't ever really talk about it and doesn't necessarily sound like it. But that's what I always like preach that to people all the time is like most of the music that you would hear somebody listening to going down the rodeo trail or like out riding pens or in the Brandon pin like most of the stuff they're listening to like they're not listening to Amarilla by morning.

No, I'm sorry. As much as I love that stuff, that's great. And maybe at a certain time in their life they listen to that type of stuff, but like they're they have a pretty eclectic taste in my experience. Yeah.

But they're listening to some blues and some rock and Right. Well, it's funny because my, you know, my family still is in Oklahoma. Uh, a lot of my extended family still farming wheat out in the panhandle in the literal no man's land and they don't they're not listening to country radio, you know. Uh they're all listening to like my cousin Danny, you know, he loves classic rock and stuff like that and uh but they got enough cattle and wheat that they could very easily be called cowboys, you know, but they're like you said, they're not out there.

They don't put in their Baxter black tape every time they get in the truck in the morning. You know what I mean? No. No.

In a funny way, they're like, I don't want to hear that stuff. I have to live it. I don't It gets old. Yeah.

I think part of it is that I think the people who've come from a background, it's like, man, I ain't got nothing to prove to you. Yeah. You know, and I've had people tell me all the I've had a lot of people assume that I was the furthest thing from country cuz I show up with that red electric guitar and, you know, and I'm playing this kind of soul infused stuff and they think I'm, you know, I'm from Denton or something, you know, and I have to explain to them. Yeah.

especially as it's becoming more popular, the cowboy thing. Uh just like right now it's just kind of at the height of popularity. It's like be careful who you It's usually the ones that you might least expect. Yeah.

It's like he's, you know, I mean that's classic like don't judge a book by its cover type stuff. Absolutely. But then I mean there's some freaking I mean some of the most cowboy people I've ever been around. I mean I'm talking they're sleeping their bed sheets are starched.

Yeah. You know and there are some people like that. Like I mean they are those people still exist too dude. So I guess the whole point is like be yourself.

Just be careful about how you how you might judge somebody cuz there's probably some stuff in the backstory that like you didn't actually know was Well, I think it kind of goes to what we were talking about earlier is kind of uh it's the packaging, you know what I mean? Uh how people package themselves and maybe their music project. And so a lot of it is marketing or narrative meme, however you want to say it. But uh just I think there's so many people they put this uh put a label on.

They put a label on and uh it's very helpful like a lot of people who are trying to break out. It's very helpful to have a label. Yeah. It's easy to like digest.

Yeah, just really quick, man. When I was just getting started, people say, "What, you know, what's the music? What do you guys What do you play? What's it sound like?"

You know, and I've always had a hard time. I'm like, "Man, uh, I grew up playing country and Hendrickx and listening to Mottown and so I write songs that are this country Hendrickx Mottown thing. Country Hendricks Mottown thing, dude. Well, that's my personal like I even like on your marketing stuff like I think that's like the thing to lean into.

Yeah. Like the fact that it's not but I do see where cuz I have the same thing. You have to like kind of spell it out. You have to tell even if it is like you know the idea of genres you know that wasn't made up by musicians.

That was made up by people who own record stores so they know where to put your and my record on the shelf. So they know how to sell it. That's again that's that very stark dividing line between making it and selling it. Yeah.

You know, it's two completely different realms, different skills, all those things. Yeah. And um I think like I said, the labels are so helpful when you're a new person, new musician, new act, whatever, trying to get your stuff out there. What is it?

Oh, it's mainline country. It's traditional country. It's, you know, and in our world, like you said, it's so pervasive. Everybody's uh country or country adjacent, you know, and it's Yeah.

pretty right down the center. We were talking about uh Josh Weathers earlier and he had the same thing like Josh Weathers growing in high school. He was like a calf roping son of a gun and uh had like a similar upbringing to you and stuff and uh but nobody ever knew that. And then stylistically, a lot of the music he played just didn't allude to that at all.

But I mean, it just shows if you heard him play some like freaking classic country stuff. Like he'd crush it. Yep. And uh and so yeah, like with where we all have grown up, like you could just walk into a Walmart and you're like you're going to know every country song that's pretty much ever exist ever existed just by like living in this area.

And then so on top of that, we would all learn like whatever we were into. Oh, okay. It's mayor. Oh, it's Hendricks.

Oh, it's this. It's that, you know. Um, but anyways, for him specifically, like for the longest time, he was just like kind of had like an a I don't I mean I say average Joe, like he, you know, I think at one point I saw him like wearing like a fedora or something like just like doing his thing and having this soul groovven bluesy thing and I remember backstage, I don't remember exactly where it was at, but there was these dudes that had a roping dummy back there and so Josh comes like walking by and like just it was just so funny because it's like the way he looked in that moment. It's like probably not the guy that you would pick out of a crowd to just walk up and like he walked by and like I don't know somehow I don't they said something to him or whatever and he just like went over there and like slapped one on there uh and it was so funny they just handed to him walked off and they were like what just happened which like also who has like a I don't know like a rope and dummy like out in that situation it was a little bit funny like definitely there's a little bit well it's a little bit Uh, probably those guys, little Pander Express, which probably, you know, what's funny is probably those people who were out there with the roping dummy at the show, they're probably a whole lot less country than Josh and they're trying to they're trying to, you know, they're trying to put a label on.

Yeah, maybe a little bit. Look what I can do. Which I Yeah. Which now we've reached a point where uh it the cowboy thing is so popular that I kind of can appreciate it now where if somebody like actually does come from that world, it's like freaking tell people.

Mhm. Maybe. I don't know. I kind of like I kind of like people discovering it.

Well, I kind of like people not knowing that about me. Yeah. Uh a lot. Like I said, a lot of people assume I'm kind of a In fact, I was out playing a show and I've got a song on my new record called Feed Lot Cowboy and I played that song and told the story I just kind of told you about Feed Lot and uh afterwards the venue owner who's known me for years, he was like, "Man, I literally have always viewed you as like this uh kind of urban city like dude that's exactly he said uh what did he how do you say it uh I've always thought you were urban intellectual like a he just called you a yepy yeah and I mean I guess I kind of took it as a compliment you know but also I thought it was completely funny because I figured most people saw this hick up there trying to sing soul music you know what I mean that's the way I assumed that came off you know and he was No, man.

I thought you were city boy and just kind of like So, I don't know. It's funny. Uh people I can definitely see why some people I guess lay it on if they feel like that's something that they have to tell you. I have to you have to know this about me, right?

Yeah. But most of the people who, you know, most of the people with an agrarian background that I know, yeah, they don't have to prove anybody anything. It's like I don't know. Uh they've been there, they've done the work.

It's like that's not necessarily the what's they don't think that's the cool thing because it's just who they are. Like we were talking about before, uh, one of the big things I have a hard time with is trying to find a way to take my fairly normal and what I view as boring life and find a way to make it cool. But my fans, uh, what I consider my normal boring life, they're like, "That's the music business. It's so cool to us."

Yeah. I'm like, "Well, it's just rehearsal. I just wrote a song. I just recorded a record at Yellow Dog.

It's just what we It's not It's what we do. It's not I don't know. You know what I mean? Yeah.

To us, it's like listen, there's people in New York City that, you know, they see some guy working on a horse. To them, they're like, "That's the most, oh my gosh, that's cra you just grab that horse's foot." You know what I mean? They're just Yeah.

freaking out. But people who grew up around horses are like, "Oh, dude, you're preaching to the choir. He's just doing Cuz that was my that was my first when I first put out my first record." Yeah.

Uh, it was like, well, what are we going to do from album artwork and like what? And I was like, I don't know, just take a picture of me working, I guess. Yeah. So, we get a cool photo of me lighting a cigarette on a horseshoe, which like in hindsight, it's a dope photo.

It's dope as hell, bro. But like, but like in the context of which we did it, it just like wasn't that cool. And the photographer was awesome. You know what I mean?

So, it was like uh and then and maybe it's just because I was like raised around the social media thing. Sure. I didn't have to necessarily make a transition into it. So, like the idea of taking your mundane ordinary daily life Yeah.

and then just make it what you present. Yeah. And like then I figured out I'm like, "Oh, just it's almost like people are talking about my music because of what I do." Oh, no.

He's a horseshoe. like it's the real [expletive] you know what I mean? Yeah, absolutely. It gave more weight to the music and it was like, "Oh, huh."

Okay. So, like the best video the videos that get the most traction for me is like I just like shoe a horse, right? Yeah. And then play the music over top of it.

Yeah. You know, and like for me that's so mundane. Actually, taking the thing that it's like you're slithering out of bed just like I don't want to go to work. And like that's the thing that somebody wants to see.

That's the thing that they're because I guess that's what separates you cuz like some dude in the middle of New York City is like right what is this? Yeah. What are you doing? Exactly.

Um and so I think every person has an element of that like bringing out that kind of goes back to our initial deal of like bringing out the beauty and kind of the mundane. I found a lot of photographers and videographers that are able to do that. For sure. For sure.

uh and just find these like almost just static shots. Yeah. I'm like obsessed with them. Yeah.

Of like they'll just find like a cool line or like these like slow zoom videos of like a static shot, but the way they color grade it and stuff is like it's like this mixture of uh like that kind of faded. It was almost like the sky would be like this faded blue, but then the tree has this like bright red with the way they color grade it. Yeah. And like they're bringing out like stuff.

I don't know. Yeah. Yeah. And I'm like, "God, that's art right there."

Yes. I love that. But there's It's nothing special about it. Just what they do.

It's like a railroad track with a tree, you know? It's just like boring. Yeah. And that's I mean, and like I said, that's one of the things that I have a hard time with is like, how do I take all this stuff that actually is really cool, but it's just normal for us?

You know what I mean? Um uh for me, you know, it's funny. We were talking about uh birth order and how that affects things. A lot of thing a lot of times with middle kids there's kind of this uh feeling of like be quiet and stay out of the way.

And so the middle kid Oh yeah, brother. Really? See, here's that here's that younger that's that youngest sibling coming out in you again. I just man I just you know we just our the youngest ones just aren't getting nearly enough attention.

See every young one thinks that. every youngest would think that. No. Uh for me, you know, that was kind of the way it was.

It was just, you know, uh don't be a pain and take care of your stuff and, you know, uh so for me, it's a lot of times when I'm trying to decide how I'm supposed to portray myself, it's hard because my first instinct is, well, I already played the music. You don't need to see my face. You know, I already made you a record. What do you want to talk to me for?

That's kind of my thinking, which is wrong, you know, which goes back to another thing you were talking about. How old are you? Uh 33. 33.

Okay. I'm 44. So, there's a little bit of like a generational divide there because, you know, uh I remember I think I was a sophomore in high school when our school got internet. Yeah.

Okay. So the there's quite a bit of a divide there uh with social media and internet there for me because number one that's not something I'm into anyway. And then I remember being raised in a time when it was like people who talked about themselves weren't viewed positively. Agreed.

Right. And so now it's like no you're supposed to talk about yourself every day. I'm like what? And video it and put myself out there.

Are you kidding me? I'm supposed to, you know. Well, okay. I agree with you.

Talk about yourself, right? But like if you're trying to I'm trying to help both of us out here. Uh I'm sure I need a lot more help than you do. So, no.

Well, cuz I struggle with the same thing. It's funny, too, like the idea of a selfie video. You remember how like it wasn't that long ago that just doing a selfie video was considered the goofiest thing ever? Yeah.

And now it's just total now that's like literally there are entire marketing campaigns now for multi-billion dollar companies that are selfie videos should change. Yeah. So it changes. Uh I was trying to like compartmentalize the idea of like can you talk about the work you do and not necessarily talk about yourself.

[Music] Yeah. talk about what it is and how it's supposed to make someone feel as opposed to just how you did it or if does that make sense? No. So, it doesn't help at all.

It's still It's still just talking about yourself. It really is. And I mean I Damn. For me, uh I have a hard time separating like the music is so personal for me.

I have a hard time pulling the two apart a lot of times. Even though I know I'm wrong, even though I know it's wrong, I have a hard time separating them. And so, you know, as far as it comes to like trying to get the music out there, uh, for me, my first instinct is, okay, it means I have to talk about me. Yeah.

And I think what I'm trying to get better at mostly is like here's the product I make and not necessarily uh you know I can show you the product I make and I can show you how the product is made. You know we don't necessarily have to go like dig down deep yeah about the guy who made it and how it might make you feel. Right. But you know what's crazy is even I say that and that's wrong because I have fans that they just love it when I show myself walking my dog and I'm like yeah cuz they do care about the person behind the what they do.

They do you know I guess it's just it's yeah I understand it. Yeah, cuz you are really just like talking about yourself all the time, which is scary. But like if you owned a It's like the difference between owning a freaking being the guy that started Home Depot as opposed to like the guy that owns the local hardware store with his name as freaking Jared Hardware, right? It's like to make a living as Jared Hardware, you kind of have to talk about Jared in the hardware store all the time.

All the time. Yeah. But if you're Home Depot, it's like you have a team of people that are you want you are talking about Home Depot all the time, but you're paying people to talk about Home Depot all the time. Exactly.

And we can't afford to like have people do that all the time. No. No. I mean, you know, I think it's amazing that we there's people in our business that they love what we do so much that they now love us and they want to help us do it.

And to me, I think that is such a huge compliment, you know. Um, in what in the indust I'm just talking about I'm just talking about people uh Steve's one of them. Oh gosh. That's what I was wondering if you were there people just around who are like listen I don't really have a bunch of personal you know there's not a bunch of personal gain in this for me but I love what you do and I want to see you do it more effectively or you know in a bigger way however you want to say it and uh those people to me are like angels in this business because there's a lot of guys like me like I'm totally content to just make my records.

You don't ever have to see my face. I'll just make records, put them out, and if you want to connect to them, that's fine. But that's not really how the world works anymore, you know? Yeah.

And there's plenty of like people on our end of the creation thing that are doing it just for the results, like for the attention. Sure. And so that exists the same as people like in the business. Yes.

Like whether you're a booking agent, a manager, like I get like a lot of those people want to be sidest at a massive show, right? That they helped in a way build just as much as the artist wants to be up in front of them and it's like a thing they can freaking flex a little bit and there are people in the industry that do it for the love of the game and the results might come and they might have the huge success, but they're in it for the love of the game. And then there's some people that are flat out in it like they're just chasing some freaking for whatever thing. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. And so, yeah, it's super rare to find somebody who's like on the business side that's just like, "Hey, I want to help wherever this thing goes. Let's talk about it then."

But like, let me just help. Yeah. Yeah. And I and I try to have that same like I try to take uh what those people say really to heart because they're not trying to, you know, make money or fame off of me.

uh they just love music like I love music and they uh I'm assuming I'm assuming music affects them the same way it affects me. You know, there's lines that nick them just like there's been n lines that nick me. And so it's about, you know, finding like-minded people who uh are kind of chasing that same goal, you know. Dude, let me tell you something that terrifies me.

All right. Uh, I had somebody that I care a lot about recently and I really value their opinion, uh, tell me, we were talking about, can you have really large great success in this industry specifically in music, not being kind of a bit of like a narcissist, over-the-top kind an egocentric, selfish person, can you? And they were like, I don't believe you can. And it terrified me, cuz I was like, shoot.

Cuz I'm not willing to make that compromise. I'm just flat out unwilling. Yeah, me either. And I've met a lot of people on uh some unsuccessful, some super successful, some uh like in the middle, and it's starting to skew towards the ones that I enjoy spending the most time with and enjoy as people are the ones that aren't as successful.

Yeah. Yeah. I find that too. You know, there's that there was this study that came out years ago, and I think a lot of people have repeated it in different ways, but something about uh like the number of billion-dollar CEOs that are actually sociopaths.

Yeah. Oh, yeah. Because that's what it takes to become a successful billion-dollar CEO. Or do you And that idea of like So whether or not they were changed into it or they were already, that kind of doesn't matter.

It's what it takes to get there any either way. Yeah, that's kind of the idea. and like uh well there's partly the idea that well that was the conversation actually was are the were these people sociopaths from the start or did they just were they willing to take on whatever behaviors it took to be successful which by the way is a symptom of a sociopath. So uh it's kind of like a snake eating its own tail.

it starts to kind of go back on itself after a while, like which is it, you know? Yeah. But, uh, again, I don't think that's one of the I don't think it's uh one of those things where you have to say every musician bigger than me is a narcissist. No.

But at the same time, there are many musicians that I've seen that uh definitely fit that bill. Yeah. There's musicians I know. Yeah.

There's some outliers that are really successful, dude. There's some really unsuccessful musicians that I think are total douchebags. Absolutely. Like, yeah.

So, there's a ton of those. I know lots of those, too. Yeah. Like, like it's like the whole idea that like when people talk about like uh like rich people are like [expletive] or something.

I'm like, I know a lot of poor people that are total dicks. Total dicks. Yes. And the money ain't got nothing to do with it.

If they just had money, now they're like now they can really Yeah. to really be who they are. Yeah. Right.

So, yeah, there's and then there's people who are ultra successful. Like there's guys I've been around that there's also a perception thing too with the massive success. Like there's guys that uh might have like big personalities and might be kind of tough to handle and stuff, but when they were that way when they were unsuccessful and then now it's just kind of magnified. Yeah.

Now it's now it's more encouraged turn into a real jerk and uh they were kind of a jerk. Now they just have the money and fame behind it to be a super jerk. And then I also empathize with having such a level of success that you just got so many people coming at you all the time and you got so much going on. Well, that's the other thing I was going to say cuz I do know I know a handful a handful of billionaires.

That's one of the funny things about music is the people that we get to interact with just because we can sling a guitar. It's crazy. You can you do fine, but like it's crazy. The people I'm That's what you're shooting for.

Fine. Yeah. I was really ready for something. Uh No.

Hey, you're really great. No, you do fine. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Uh but uh you know, I know several uh I know a handful of billionaires and uh I would say I know some people on both sides of that coin we were talking about. Uh, some of them you can definitely tell that there are parts of their personality that were incredibly beneficial to getting where they were, you know, and I know a couple billionaires who are just you wouldn't know. I know unless someone told you someone else cuz they wouldn't tell you.

They're going to keep, you know, they're just there's one in particular I'm thinking of. Uh he just, you know, I know him as Mike and he's the most successful, richest dude in this little fing friend group of millionaires and billionaires that I know and he's like the big dog. Mike's chill. Mike is real quiet.

He's always sitting on the edge listening, watching, observing. You know, he's not the guy in the middle of the room, all eyes on him, putting on a show all the time. He's just chill. Uh, and so again, it's one of those things you can't you can't really put a blanket on everybody.

Uh, but at the same time, I don't know, like you said, there's those, is it something I'm willing to trade? And am I am I am I willing to turn in to the type of person it would take me to be a mega international superstar? Right. And I think most people I don't personally believe it takes that.

I don't either. I don't per So that's what I had to disagree with my friend. He thought like you're going to have you would have to make that compromise. I disagree.

Yeah. I'm unwilling to make that compromise, but I also disagree. Well, what I was going to say is um I think it goes down to kind of that goal or mission statement we talked about a little bit little bit ago. Having that set before anything happens like Uh Walt Wilkins was amazing when I was making my first record because one of the things he made me do, he said, "I want you to sit down and write a mission statement for this record.

I also want you to write a mission statement for like your uh how do you say it? Well, just for me, but really like what I'm going to do in my career." Write it down. Did you write wrote it down?

Yeah, you made me write it down. Okay. And it's been one of those things where you decide you make your decisions years before it comes up. Like here's another one.

Here's another example. I have fans all the time that, you know, uh they kind of have this sex, drugs, and rock and roll idea of the music business. And I had a guy one night ask me, "Man, I bet you've had so many opportunities or whatever, you know." Uh, and I kind of ruined his fun because I told him, you know, I've been married I've been married 22 years now.

I can't remember how many years I was at the time, but you know, I said, I've been married this long, and I had to decide at the very beginning what I was going to do in those situations. I already had made the decision. We already had a company policy before it came up. And so when it came up, there was no thinking.

I just did the company policy, which was, I'm flattered, but I'm going to go to my hotel alone tonight. Yeah. You know? Yeah.

Um, and honestly those things don't I mean let me be clear that doesn't come up very often with me because most of the people who know my music Yeah. I'm a family man. They know, right? So that those uncomfortable interactions don't really come up that often.

But the couple times they have, you just have to know what's going to happen way in advance. Mhm. And I think kind of what we've been talking about with the business and success and all those things, you kind of have to make those decisions in advance. Yeah.

That specific scenario too, it's funny that you would think the bigger you get, the more opportunities that there are, but it's like kind of contrary. It's like when you're like seemingly like unknown, right? And it's like it's just wandering around. Then you're just like hanging out with everybody and all that kind of stuff.

It's like people would probably be shocked what it looks like backstage at some of these big deals. It's like it's a bunch of musicians sitting on a couch on their phone. Yeah, that's exactly. There's probably no music.

Like nobody wants to hear music. Like the artist like doesn't get off their bus and like there ain't a Yeah. Turn off the music, turn off the TV. We want to sit in silence, you know.

Uh two of the crew guys, they're, you know, two of the crew guys are in line for the shower. You know, somebody's doing laundry. One guy uh is meeting up with his like middle school best friend and they're going to go get sushi. Like so if you're getting into it in that scenario like you were really looking for it.

Yeah. Like you're having to organize. Well, you hound dogged it. You went you went and found it.

Yeah. And you're like you're creating the scenario as opposed to the dude like I mean places I play it's like Yeah. You're just like hanging out and it's like old booze brains like she's hot. It's like no you [expletive] Yeah.

Leave. Get out of here. Go take a nap in the van right now. Yeah.

And I do find that like verbally saying things or writing things down cuz like I have the same policy and it's like anybody in my band or anything like that. That's like a thing that's like verbally said is like I'm not playing this game. Oh. And I tell people who are in my band.

We're not doing this deal. This is not what we do. Dudes who are married in my band, they've been fired because they weren't. There's guys who have played in my bands and one of the reasons they got fired is because I found out they were using my show.

Yeah. To chase tail. Yeah. I ain't into it.

Nope. Nope. I ain't going to help you do that, buddy. Yeah.

And like I like the idea of like cuz there's stuff that exists where it's like what happens on the road stays on the road. Like bros are bros. I'm like dude freaking screw that. You do something and I know about it and your wife calls me.

Mhm. I'm tell her everything. Like I'm not even doing that for one of my best friends. Right.

Yeah. Like I'm not Yeah. Like bros are bros cuz like also my best friends like most of them aren't like living that kind of life. Like we would probably already be having a conversation about like hey this ain't cool.

Like we're not like I we're clearly on different pages. Like we're not as good a friends as I thought we were. I just don't roll like that. No man.

to me like and it's dude it's been a it's been a hindrance because I've had conversations with industry people where it's like you know like if you're freaking if you're available it makes your marketing easier. It sure does. It sure does. It absolutely does.

You know, it's funny because you make those you make those decisions. You kind of set those standards from yourself and it's interesting to see what happens uh when you set boundaries on yourself. because there's people around you who don't have the same boundaries and you just kind of have to realize, hey man, probably on different paths. Yeah.

So, you know, like I stopped drinking uh in 2020. Uh not really because I had a problem uh mostly just because uh it was one of the things I needed to do to get physically healthy. I've had some physical uh issues the last few years that are thankfully now kind of uh I'm on the much better end. I've got myself a lot more healthy and things like that.

But just not being someone who sits around and gets drunk after the shows all the time. That's cost me opportunities. I'm sure of it because I'm not one of the guys who sits around and yeah, let's have another shot and let's get silly and whatever, you know? Uh, just not.

Gosh, isn't it weird, too, that like it's fun? Doesn't that kind of suck? I mean, I don't miss it one bit. Really?

It's like the ocean and mud puddle thing, man. Once you see the ocean, it's like I don't miss the mud puddle. Like, man, I go home to this amazing woman and these three amazing kids, and I wake up not feeling like Nine Shades of [expletive] Yeah. So, I don't I'm definitely not into like getting hammered thing.

That's not something I enjoy. Uh but the social I don't know. I like hanging the social aspect of it. I do miss that.

Yeah. Yes. The social interaction. I personally don't love the idea that it has to revolve around alcohol, right?

I don't really like that. Mhm. And then even the idea of somebody like, "Let's do shots." And if somebody's like, "No."

Being like, "Come on." Like I don't I'm like, "Okay, cool. Fine. Don't Yeah.

Don't care. Hang out. Like I don't but I'm not going to like make you feel bad." Well, and I have to be honest, it's not like it's not even like sobriety cuz I mean I smoke Snoop Dogg under the table.

Oh, okay. Okay. But, uh, that's a whole different I think that's a whole different vibe, but Oh, see, for me, it's actually a little bit more sobriety. Really?

Yeah. It's actually less like what it is. That's like actually personally why I don't really like weed that much. Okay.

is because it takes me out of my like I like being like I guess having my all my faculties. See the reason I like weed is because it takes me out of it because my natural state is that why you liked alcohol? No. Okay.

I drank I never really enjoyed alcohol ever. Even when I was in high school like uh I had friends are always trying to sneak this or that, you know, and it was just never really never really that interested in it. Um, I also though like when I was a kid was taking moonshine as cough medicine. So, uh, alcohol was not like this cool fun like I'd had experience it with it since I was a kid and like, oh, it's just this.

Does that make sense? So there wasn't any there wasn't much newness or funness, you know, even when I had even when I was younger, not married and had opportunities to do all those things, it just I don't know like I never was really interested in that, you know. Uh for me, the thing that uh and kids, if you're listening to this, don't do drugs. Uh direct into the camera.

Don't do it. I like it. Uh but for me uh one of the big things is uh I used to be super uh withdrawn on stage. So my uh much of my musical background is in church.

So you're supposed to be up there. You need to be playing your ass off. You need to be singing your ass off, but don't make a spectacle of yourself. Which I understand, right?

Yeah. Makes total sense to me. I get it. Stick them in the back of the room where nobody can see them.

That's that'd be the more logical thing. Put the front on stage. that'd be the more logical thing. But, uh, so most of my music was in that setting of like come up here and be excellent, but don't be like this, you know?

And so, uh, unfortunately for me, it kind of went the other way. And the first few times I got up on stage to play my songs, I might as well have been a cardboard cutout. Like, there wasn't there was no uh interaction. And um I had a show years ago at the Golden Light and uh it was like we had an opener and an acoustic opener and it was the first time I sold a Golden Knight out and there was like 30 people standing on the sidewalk waiting to get in.

And I've never really had like a panic attack or whatever. Uh, I don't get super nervous when it comes to music, but that was one of the first times when I when I was sitting there thinking, I have to go up and stand in front of these people. They're here to like they were there to see me specifically. Dude, I am the exact opposite.

If there's if there's not many people, I'm like embarrassed. Oh, really? I get way more nervous, dude. When if it's like happening, I'm like, yeah, okay, makes sense.

Go. No. Like if there's five people in there to me, I'm like, "Oh, I'm just going to sing for these five people." I had to learn it.

Yeah. Like learn to appreciate that part of it. Yeah. For me, it's so much easier.

There are five people. Every person is going to get asked, "What song do you want to hear next? What about you? Is there a song you've been waiting on?"

Yeah. Right. Which is super disarming. Like that's a great way of doing.

I had to learn that one. Yeah. Like I had to learn like how to like cuz there's a distance in a like between you and a crowd and even with a big crowd you have to learn how to make that even a little bit personal in my experience anyway. So you kind of have a different type of rope a dope.

I keep finger gunning too. I don't know why I'm finger I don't do that on stage at all but I think you should incorporate it here. Got need a few more. I just probably should.

It's probably why I haven't had more success. You need to in this in the middle of uh Desperado when you do that song just and then go right back to playing it. Desperado. That's right, baby.

So, uh but there's a distance that you have to like kind of pull people in. Even if they're right there and it's packed. Sure. There's like a thing that they have in the same way with like an empty room cuz they're kind of sitting there like it's a little clunky.

Like does he take himself too serious? There's nobody here. Why is there nobody here? Am I an idiot?

Why did I come? M like they're I feel like they're kind of having all of those questions. That's the question or that's the thoughts that you think they're having. Oh yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And they're really like just hyped to be there and they're just like, "Oh my god, here.

Oh god, he's on stage. Oh my god, there he is." That's what they're thinking. Sure.

And then you start like, "Oh my god, he's playing the song. Oh my god." That's what they're thinking. Well, I usually I usually try to address it like in the sense of like ain't a lot of people here, but like I freaking am so stoked that y'all are.

Yeah. Like this is badass. Yep. Like, thanks for making the effort.

Yeah, it's funny because it, you know, it used to be at the very beginning, uh, weed was I definitely used it as a crutch to get outside of my own head. Uh, now it's funny. I don't um I smoke a lot less than I used to and I smoke a lot less around the show than I used to because now I'm kind of to that point where it's like I said, it's a snake eating its own tail. Let's kind of move back to that thing where it's like I want to be there.

That's where I want to be. And now I've worked past all the uh my own insecurities about uh promoting or displaying myself, however you want to say it, on stage. I know that those people are there to see me. And I take that as a that's a privilege.

That's an honor. I want to be a good student now. I want to be a good steward now of that privilege. like you know um one thing with music for me that I can never really forget about is the privilege that it is to get to play music because like we were talking about um before I started playing my own songs uh my options were manual labor a labor and playing somebody else's songs in a church right and I want to be so respectful of people who most of those people, you know, say a Friday night show, how many of those people got up at 6 to go to work?

They put in a full day, dealt with a boss, some co-workers, customers, whatever. Probably hauled ass home, took a shower, probably grabbed a bite at a drive-thru on the way just to try to make it there on time. And now they've spent however many dollars to get there in the room. They're sitting in a chair and they can barely contain themselves.

They're like, "Oh my gosh, here he comes. Here he comes." Right? I don't want to be the schmuck who's like whatever.

You know, to me, like I was one of those people a long damn time. You know what I mean? And the reality of it is like you were like the whatever. No, I was one of the people who worked all day.

Yeah. Yeah. Okay. You know what I'm saying?

Like, and I and I keep I try to keep that mindset all the time in the shows. Like the other day we were on our way to we were on our way somewhere and uh we were going through downtown Dallas and there was uh this crew that was taking the Christmas lights down and they were on these 30foot extension ladders and they had a guy at the bottom holding the ladder and they had a couple 2x4s like propped up on the ground to the to a rung on the ladder and the top of the ladder was resting on like a tree that was moving every time the wind blew. And there's some dude up there. There was guys and gals up there.

They were pulling these Christmas lights out of this tree, right? And I'm on my way to a show and I'm at a stoplight and these people are directly in front of me. And for me, that's the those are the things I kind of try to remember. It's like I get down on myself.

I get frustrated that I'm not bigger or more famous or have more streams. all the things that you can beat yourself up over. And then I remember, yeah, but someone else had to work their ass off all day today to come see your show. Hell yeah.

You know what I mean? Perspective is Yeah. Honestly, that was one of the biggest things. Uh getting outside of my own head and realizing, man, I'm here.

I'm really here for these people. Yeah. You know, and all the ugly things I think about myself, they're probably not thinking any of those things, you know. I told someone one time, uh, they asked me like, you know, when you're up there like just ripping a big old solo, like what's going through your head?

And what's going through my head is don't screw this up. Don't screw this up. Don't screw this up. Partly, but then also, it doesn't really matter what I do up there.

I'm thinking, "Oh man, I could do better. This could be better. Wonder if I could rewrite this solo. I could play this faster.

I could throw in I could throw in a few more 30 secondond notes. Just squeeze a few more notes into this measure. A few more 30 seconds. Yeah, just a few more.

And like uh cuz in my brain I'm like it's ah these people know they're watching me. They know they know that I'm just cuz I feel it's funny because I tell people all the time uh people who get you know some people gush after the show and it gets a little I almost want to be like hey man stop. I'm normal. I'm a I'm just a I'm a normal person, right?

Like I need you to stop gushing over me so that you and I can actually have a real connection. Yeah. Cuz if you've got this you've got this crazy builtup idea of, oh, he's so amazing. He's so special.

My Well, I worry at times that they think I need that. That's why they're doing it. Yeah. I think some people think that they think that's what's gonna like maybe make me feel good, which like it because coming from and it does to a degree, but then it gets to a point where it's like, oh, no, you don't have to do that, right?

Like I'm happy asking about your life. Yeah. But it's like they don't know that I would be okay with that. Well, and a lot of people that's the only interaction they have interaction they have with a quote unquote celebrity or whatever.

You know, that's a big part of uh this job is that idea of the celebrity of it all of like who's more or less famous, those type of things, right? Well, it'll change the dynamic of a room. It changes the entire dynamics of a room. Like, yeah.

Yeah. Cuz Oh, that's a funny one cuz like you could think you maybe are the most freaking special one in the room and then somebody walks in that just dwarfs you, right? And it just takes it switches that on its head immediately and then it all starts to become laughable. That's the thing.

It's like this is all ridiculous. It's all silly. Yes. Celebrity is one of the silliest things that I've ever encountered because uh and the reason I feel that way is because there's people that I viewed the when we started the conversation, we talk about people like, "Oh, they're special.

There must be something. They've got something that nobody else has." And I definitely felt that way before. Yeah, I fell into that.

Well, then I got to know these people like on a very personal level. Like we work together, we uh we have success together, we have some small failures together, and then you realize celebrity is so stupid. These are just regular people. You know what I mean?

Yeah. Well, that it factor around that kind of aura around him is a little bit manufactured by everybody else around him. Yeah. And I think it's hilarious because you especially like in festivals and stuff uh because uh the celebrity thing is not um it's relative.

Uh h there was a time I was walking down the corridor at uh music fest and I was with three or four other artists and uh we were all kind of like I think we're going to that uh the grand ballroom at the farther end of the hotel and that and so we were all just kind of walking together, you know, chit cchatting and stuff. And it was very funny because a couple times in that little short walk, it happened to me one time where the four of us and I would view all three of these guys as bigger than me. I guess the four of us were walking down the corridor and a fan's like, "Oh my god, Zach Wilkerson." Which I think is just hilarious.

I think that's really funny. I do too. I'm like, if you knew if you knew Zack Wilkerson, you wouldn't be feeling that way. Yeah, he's good at geology.

Yeah, he's great at geology. But what's funny is like those other three guys, they just kind of at first they stood there and then they kept walking. They knew I would keep they knew I would catch up, but they were like, "All right, we're going to let him have his moment with his fan, you know, and I talked to my fan and it was fine. It was cool, you know, all that stuff."

And then we got back to the group and then further down we went, it was another, it happened, but it happened to another of those guys. And so me and the other two, we kept walking. He'll catch up. You know what I mean?

Yeah. And it's one of those things. It's so relative. And uh when you realize that um celebrity is this thing uh it's a shared myth.

It goes back to that whole idea of like these people think this about us or about them or however you want to say it. It's just such a funny thing. And because the people who are actually celebrities, they're like, I'm just I'm just a musician. Yeah.

I just I just can't really treat people different. Yeah. And I think that becomes I think that happens because we got to go through the whole process. Yeah.

And I don't think a lot of people on the other side of it, they get to go through the whole process of where they see. And that also can have an adverse effect where it's like the hot girl thing where you think because she's the hot girl, she got hit on all the time and she gets all these compliments. And it's like, oh, Contrer, everybody thinks that she's unattainable. Well, yeah.

And everybody thinks she's getting accolades all the time, so she gets nuns. And she's unapproachable. Yes. And so she doesn't get any compliments and nobody says anything to her.

Nobody talks to her. It's actually the opposite of what you think. So there's some people that like maybe haven't been around like a big like celebrity before. And I've seen people get kind of cold towards them like kind of trying to act too cool where it's like the celebrity like how few uh people might walk up to uh like I've done uh you talk about somebody with like the factor.

I've done some work with Parker now. Okay. Yeah. And Parker's like, you stand next to him and like you just want to pull your shoulders back a little more.

You know what I mean? You're just like, "Hell yeah, we got this." Coolness by proximity, dude. It's just he's one of those people that has that freaking thing and uh what was I about to say?

What was I talking about? Uh the uh oh, somebody like kind of giving you a hard time. So, he's like a really good-look dude and stuff. So it's like the how few people would probably just go up to him and just be like, "Hey dude, that like on your first record, that like third song on the album list, like that song rips."

Like I really like that. I like what you did on the second verse of that song. Yeah. He like he writes all of his own stuff.

Like he does it. Like he's in there. He's doing the thing. Sure.

And uh and like how but you might think he might be getting all that attention all the time, but it's typically for like other BS of just celebrity. Yeah. Yeah, but it's like it's not very frequent that you get somebody like that and somebody just comes up and they're like, "Hey, man. I really like the work that you did on the B-side track or whatever and it's like thanks, right?

Thanks, man." Yeah. Not just like, "Oh my gosh, like all the all the [expletive] you know, gushing." And so sometimes people even like, you know, maybe give you the cold shoulder cuz like they think you're getting all this attention all the time, then they're just rude to you.

Yeah, there's Yeah, I've noticed that. I've had that definitely where people uh people thought uh because I was a celebrity, they thought I was going to act a certain way. Yeah. And they're very surprised when Yeah.

It's like you almost have to prove you. It's like you're like trying to like, "No, you can be nice to me. I'm going to be nice to you." Yeah.

But they're coming out. I'll tell you like one of the like I hear fans say all the time, "Oh my gosh, you're just so nice." I'm like, "You thought I wasn't?" Yeah.

You sounded really surprised when you said that. Does that mean you thought I wasn't nice before this? Do you ever think it might be them thinking about what would I be like if I had this attention? I think so.

It goes back to that whole celebrities are special thing. They honestly believe, oh, if you know if I could do that, I know that I would whatever. I would be a total [expletive] Right. Right.

Right. Right. Well, I mean, I'm an [expletive] anyway. So, yeah.

Y'all should hear Zach off the camera. Off the camera. Listen. This guy.

This guy. This guy. Hey, that's the great thing about the long form stuff. You can't hide it.

For an hour, hour and a half, you can't hide it. Yeah. Yeah. And I do like that about the long form.

Uh I think that's one of the coolest things that's happened in media is because you actually get to hear these people talk for a long time. Yeah. And pretty much anybody agreeing to do it, it's almost like on the agreement you're like, "Oh, okay. They're real."

Yeah. Cuz like anybody who's not wouldn't agree to do it. Yeah. What's interesting like I've actually become fans of people because I heard them talk before I listened to their music.

I've And honestly, dude, that's what I'm looking for. I'm looking for depth in people. I'm looking for realness. I'm looking for connection.

I've had so many uh what's the word? Like tragedies, uh harrowing like I've had so much like heavy hard stuff. Just not really into I don't know. I'm not into putting on a facade.

you're you're gonna have a really hard time selling me anything, you know. Um I want to find out, you know, what's in your heart, what's in your brain, what are the what are the things you think about like what keeps you up at night? What do you worry about? What do you think is cool?

What do you know, what makes you excited? You know, what topic could I ask you about? And you start squirming in your seat because you're so excited to talk about it. That's the things that I dig.

Uh because there's a lot of superficial stuff with selling music that I have a hard time with. I have a hard time being superficial. And so I'm like, well, how do I do this, but do it in a real kind of authentic way. Yeah.

I want to show myself the best way I can. I want to I still have to sell it, but I'm not going to lie to you. I refuse to lie to you. You know what I mean?

That's why I think long form is so fantastic because you get to hear thoughts. You get to hear prejudices, you know, all those things. I love it. Yeah.

Uncomfortabilities. Uh yeah. Well, I appreciate you doing this, man. Oh, man.

This is I This is fun. I love hanging out with I don't know. I love hanging out with people I think are maybe chasing the same thing I am. Yeah.

Yeah, I think so. We'll see though cuz like when the cameras go off, you know? Yeah. We might fist fight later.

I can't compete with those freaking those speed lock cowboys, dude. They'll whoop my ass. Yeah. Well, I'm not one anymore.

I'm a van driver now. I can't compete with anybody really. Uh yeah, that's our go-to. Yeah, I have a very punchable face.

Oh, really? We'll experience it at some point. There is a It's funny. I have very punchable fists.

That's what I find. This might be perfect. This is a match made in heaven. This is a match made in heaven.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I got a punchable mouth, too.

I get to talking too much. Is that the youngest child? Oh, that's what it is. There it is.

Yeah, for sure. Well, cool, man. Uh, you got you're playing a bunch of spring, aren't you? Yeah.

Uh, you know, I've been saying no to a lot of stuff. Good. And so, uh, I'm for the last two years, I basically only do what I want. And if and if there's any little bitty part of me that doesn't want to do it, I just don't do it.

Do you do the bands in town thing? Yeah, we have a banding shows. What's the what's the typical way that you're sending out info about shows or new releases? Um, I know Bands in Town sends out uh little reminders and stuff.

Uh, one thing I've recently just I don't know if they just started it or if they just allowed me to be part of it, but uh Spotify is now doing kind of the show announcement thing, the local show thing. And uh they follow literally go to the profile page and click follow on Spotify. Yeah. And then you'll get you'll get notified next time I'm in the area.

And that's actually been we've had a few people who have told us that's working well for them. Yep. They don't necessarily have to try to keep up with my calendar, but I'll show up on the Spotify. So, Exactly.

Yeah. Yeah. That and bands in town. And then do you have an email list on your website?

You know, I do and I've been horrible about using it. I probably need to use it. Yeah. Um I uh because I'm like always just trying to consider ways of like how do we just get to the like even people that follow you on all the different social media.

You can still post stuff and they won't see it. Yeah. It's weird. So it's like how do you just get to the goods while keeping it like you don't have to freaking check up on me every two months.

It's like if something's happening I'll shoot you an email. Sure. Sure. You know.

Yeah. And email is something I definitely should be taking more advantage of. I've thought about using that kind of like a I've haven't done it yet. Um, I've thought about kind of using it as like a as a fan club email.

Yeah. Put something in the email that only people who are on the list can get. I sent physical mail. Really?

Snail mail. That's beautiful. Postcards and handwritten to every all the handwritten 150,000 followers chiseled in stone. So the I would I would just do pen and paper, but you got to do what you got to do.

Shipping costs are through the roof, dude. It's insane. And Mike, I told you he does most of the editing. Yeah.

What I meant. It's tough going back and fixing a chisel. He's actually the one that's doing the chiseling. So, you use a germl.

You got Milwaukee over there. Yeah. No, he does it by hand. But poor hands.

Have you seen his You saw his hands when he came in. Yeah. Looks like a couple uh glazed hams. Just huge giant.

They are strong. They're very They look like strong hands. It's not where I thought you were going with it, but chise Michael with his chiseled ham hands. Cool.

All right. Well, see y'all. Thanks for listening. Zack Wilkers.

Thanks y'all. [Music]