Cody Jinks

Full episode transcript, auto-generated from the audio and lightly formatted (verbatim, not edited).

The people from the Red River, the staff that waited the tables, they donated their tips. Anybody that the people that were the vendors that were there, every single person donated their time, their money, their talent, their product, their Like that was truly community coming together. And man, I'll take that every day of the week. That's real.

That's important. You know, that's where I'll live. That's Texas, man. Yeah, hell yeah, dude.

That's badass. What you got for what it's worth. Thanks. Thank you.

Well, you know what, man? We're I'm We're Listen, Jesus said love your neighbor. Who's your neighbor? Everybody's your neighbor, you know?

It You know, try to take care of people. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah, that's Are you like relatively religious, spiritual? Bro, you have no idea. Me and me and that dude talk a lot. Yeah, I've gone through too much in my life to not had to not have seen God first hand several different times.

I've been in some bad places, man. But just personally or you've seen him work in other people's lives or both? Yes. Just man, I saw a homeless dude commit suicide one time and I saw God there.

You saw it? Yeah. I mean, I've seen some I've seen some of the crazy I've seen I've seen a guy almost got shot on my stage one time cuz the cops kept tasing him. He kept coming.

He was all messed up. Um I mean, dude, just I've seen I've seen people try to kill people. Um I've seen a bunch of bad stuff just being around bars since I was 17 years old all hours of the night, dude. I've been on every towns Any town in America, you name it, I've been on that rough side of town.

I've seen everything, dude, you know? And Um I've seen enough evil to know there's a devil and if there's a devil, there's a God and I've seen them both. Is that something you knew your whole life or was that something you learned later in life? Man, God started talking to me when I was real young.

I talk about a lot in my songs. Um You know, that's always been there. Um Yeah, I always knew that there was kind of a we had kind of a different relationship, I think. Is it different now than your childhood, though?

I mean, I know in ways it would be just cuz you're older. I quit fighting him. I quit um I It took me till I was in my early 40s to quit bucking the system. Um Never turned my back on him.

He never turned his back on me. He was always there with me in all them bars and when I was making bad decisions, he was always there. But he was there when I was making the good decisions, too. Yeah, you can't have one without the other.

Sure. Yeah. So when you say like bucking the system, though, was that was that Well, I mean, every problem child gets disciplined, right? You know?

Oh, yeah. You know, it's And you do you want to do it even though you know you're going to get in trouble. And I was that kid. I still that kid a lot.

Oh, I'm sure. Tell me about it. You know? I mean, dude, look what I do for a living, man.

I've walked around my entire career doing this. I mean, like there's nobody in Nashville in the whole music business I hadn't told them exactly what I thought about them. You know? Right or wrong.

Yeah, but It is what it is, man. I'm still having fun. Yeah, yeah, speaking your mind. You know, I know exactly what you're talking about.

But like were you raised really religious? I was raised by mom I was raised in the Church of Christ, which is real strict if people aren't familiar with what that is all about. Uh pretty strict. And uh but my mom always made sure we were there.

Dad If dad showed up to church back in the day, if he showed up, he was hungover or still drunk. Um And I was okay cuz he was there. Um Mom made sure we were there most Sundays even if dad wasn't. But dad still always sang louder than everybody else even if he was hungover.

What Yeah, was he So was everybody into music in your family? Yeah. Yeah, big musical family. Yeah.

Like did they pursue it in any way or they just were into it? No, not really. My dad played honky-tonks in the '70s and '80s. When I was really young when he and mom first got together, so that's where I got my love of it.

Um you know, growing up listening to old country old country music, you know? That was That was And then old rock and roll from mom. Old country from dad, old rock and roll from mom. What rock?

Mom was big Elton John. Um Oh, okay. You know, Godly, Elton John with the I'm just trying to think of the vinyls I inherited from mom. Elton John and Led Zeppelin and Gosh, everything in between and all the country and old rhythm and blues, Percy Sledge, stuff like that.

Yeah. Interesting. So that's where we get you. I'm all over the map.

That's kind of I'm kind of a mutt. Yeah, it's kind of why there's a lot of rock and roll in my country, I guess you could say or you know, whatever. But uh Do you feel like there's a difference between some of your records and then like the way the live show goes? Mhm.

Yeah. Yeah. We record more uh It's a rock and roll show with country songs sprinkled in. That's kind of what we do.

We tend to lean more to the country side when we're recording. Um Yeah, I know. Like explain that to me. Like how do I like to be able to take just a guitar and be able to sit down um at a singer-songwriter uh song and make Take a song like loud and heavy.

Um I can sit down and play it with an acoustic guitar and make it real light and just blend it in with anybody's country music sing-along thing we're doing. Or we can play it live and you're in a rock and roll show, you know? I like being able to do it both ways. Yeah, and do you feel like fans or listeners Do you feel like they're caught off guard maybe the first time they go to a live show?

Or does it just Yeah, I think so. I think a lot of them kind of go, "Whoa." Cuz it's exciting. It's big lights, big stage, big production.

The band is high energy. We run around. It's We're all uh We're all in our 40s or 50s these days, but you know, it's still It's not a bunch of old dudes up there playing slow music, man. It's a It's a rock and roll show.

We're running around and it's fun. Yeah. Yeah, so like when you Like cuz you were work Were you working in the stockyards like tending bar and stuff for a while? Yeah, I bartended in the stockyards from '03 to '07 at the White Elephant.

Okay, so I'm trying to think like at that time like what was some of the popular Texas sounds? Oh my gosh, I could popular I can tell They're my friends. Yeah, actually they're my friends now. I couldn't compete with them and that's the whole reason I left Texas to go out and play.

Because of my good friends Randy Rogers and Wade Bowen. Well, okay, hold on. But that's funny. You said you couldn't compete with them, so that's why you left Texas.

owned it. They owned everything. I was I was too Nashville I was playing too many Nashville song type of things. I was still playing George Strait and Merle Haggard.

Everybody was playing Cross Canadian Ragweed and these guys, you know? So in the early 2000s like I didn't really have a home, so that's why I left Texas and started playing all over the United States. Because you were playing maybe more traditional country stuff. Yeah.

You couldn't fit in quite as much in Texas. Yeah, everybody was wanting to hear stuff I didn't want to play. How do So that's really funny now. they're all my friends.

Oh, yeah. Yeah. What did Yeah, it didn't mean you didn't like them or something. Right.

Uh Yeah, there's like one video that is like seared in my brain. I think I saw it on YouTube of you playing like a backyard freakin My buddy's Jeff's house. Oh, you know exactly what it is. Has somebody brought this up before?

Oh, yeah. Like where you're playing the Randy Rogers thing? Yeah. Oh, I just I just was really tickled by it.

Oh, that was No, that wasn't Jeff's house. That was God, Randy gives me so much crap for that video, man. He's my ass. Why?

He did cuz he's like, "Randy, you keep playing my song." You know, that's not playing. That was uh That was Jason's house. That was Jason Feustel.

Jason Feustel. He lives in LA now. That's crazy that you would remember that. Yeah.

I'm still friends with him. Huh. He used to hire us He'd hire me and Josh. Josh is still with me, the long-haired bass player.

You know, he's been with me almost 20 years. He'd hire me and Josh and pay us $100 a piece. And we'd play in his backyard at barbecues. So during that So you would have still been working in the stockyards.

Mhm. It was like every day you're tending bar down there? Mondays and Wednesdays I'd open to close. I'd work 14 or 15 hours Monday, 14 or 15 hours Wednesday.

I would play music Tuesday, Thursday, Friday, Saturday, Sunday. Oh, you were just you were doing like the kind of folk work. Local stuff, yeah. All right, so like what was the movement out of that?

Cuz that can start to become kind of a black hole, right? Yeah. Um We just got in the van and left, man. So, you were you were doing full band stuff doing full band stuff, booking our own tours.

Yeah. All over the US. Playing with Whitey Morgan a lot. We played with Whitey about 4 years in a row.

Oh, so you've known him for a long time. Oh, me and Whitey God damn, dude. Yeah. A lot of great stories with Whitey.

Where's he from? Uh, Flint, Michigan. So, how'd y'all link up? Uh, our manager at the time put us together.

Whitey and I didn't even like each other. And we're on the road together for like a month before we really even spoke. Well, so okay, but you had When you said you were book Did you had a manager at that time? You had a booking agent?

Just got a manager and a booking agent and they put us together real quick. Yeah. What year would that have been, roughly? Is that like after your first record came out?

That would've been 2012. Yeah, okay. So, it would've been Is your Is your Is your first record come out in 2010? Yeah.

Yeah. So, it would've been a couple years after that. 2012, 2013. Right around there.

Why'd y'all not like each other? Or you just didn't hit it off? Uh, we were both drunk and grumpy. And we're both sober and happy and I don't get to see him enough.

We love each other. I mean, like I miss him. We don't get to play together a lot anymore. When did you get sober?

Uh, August 19th, 2023. Oh, dang. Okay. Yeah.

Whoa, and like so you were you like real bad? I My kids saw me fall down drunk um for the last time. Actually. And I never drank again.

I woke up the next day and I was like, this is a problem. So, you cold turkey'd it? Yeah. Cold turkey right in the middle of a tour.

Ooh. I went back out on the road. Yeah. Ooh.

Had to learn how to stay sober on a tour bus after I had to take my first plane ride sober when I was 43. Did my first show sober. Everything. Recorded my first song sober.

Well, when you say sober, the times before like even playing shows and stuff, were you like really tore up? Or I don't remember uh large chunks of my career. Years. I don't remember some years.

Did it ebb and flow? In terms of how much did Would you just kind of back off for a little bit, not drink as much, and then No. I just drank. I drank all of it all the time.

All day. I woke up, started drinking. Yeah. I drank till I passed out.

Show or not. Yeah. It's actually kind of fat that I don't even that's impressive that you could hold it together as well as you did. That's probably what made it even more dangerous.

It was is cuz I knew I was good at it. I mean, I knew how good I was. But I got sober and we walked into a venue up in Indiana right after I gotten sober and my uh I was talking about to our my stage manager and I walked in I go, This is a cool room. It's a pretty good show.

He goes, Yeah, we played here four times. I was like, We? I played here four times? He's like, Yeah.

I was like, Huh. All right. It's going to be a good one. I'm sober now, so I'll remember.

What But your wife stayed with you through all that, right? 28 years, yeah. So, we've been together. Uh Yeah, I mean, would she like encourage you along the way to try to stop?

Or what? Uh No. No. Uh, she just lived with it.

Yeah. She just God bless her. I just woke up one day. She'd been praying for it for a long time.

Wow. Yeah. So, that's probably one of those moments where you're like God is real. Mhm.

Yeah, I There was one of those like when you when you're that big of a drunk and you just stop, yeah, there's something higher going on. Yeah, and not to mention nothing bad happened after it. Like crazy withdrawals and just crazy [expletive] that happens. I had somebody really close to me uh in recent past.

They cold turkey'd it and it got bad. Yes, I've seen that. I've seen that on the road. you know, hallucinations, did a bunch of crazy [expletive] Yeah.

No bueno. Been around that, yeah. Yeah. Well, and like people have told me that they don't know like if it'll happen or why it necessarily happens to certain people.

Like the hallucination withdrawal thing. Like some people don't get it. I didn't get like DTs like I got the night sweats. Yeah.

I would sweat it out. At night I would dream like really bad dreams. Oh. Did you get more irritable?

No. Uh, I became very emotional. Yeah. Oh, holy cow.

So, you were probably like feeling some things you hadn't felt before. Yes, I never cried. I didn't cry for a lot of years and uh I quit drinking and I started feeling things and then I started crying like a normal person again. Yeah.

I'd forgotten how. For 20-something years, 30 years? 24 years. Are you So, you hadn't cried in that long?

Not like a real Not a good one. Not a real one. No. Whoa.

Yeah. What was the first one like? Uh I don't know cuz after I quit drinking I cried so much. It was weird, yeah.

That's kind of amazing, though. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Not anymore. I mean, like I've I've had to go to therapy and learn how to refeel things and whatnot. So, I mean, like I'm in control over all that, but yeah, right at first it was pretty crazy. Wow.

Yeah. Screw that. Let's not talk about that. I don't want to talk about that anymore.

That's freaking way too heavy. I ain't I told I told you, man. I'll talk about anything you want. It's real life, dude.

It's very real life. It's very real life. But that's a heavy That's a freaking heavy topic, dude. It's also a an impressive thing to be willing to like talk about it.

I learned from a good friend of mine named Mark Morton. He's a guitar player for a metal band called Lamb of God. And uh when I first got sober, he was celebrating his fifth year and he we were writing together. And uh I was still weird.

I didn't know that I could talk about it. He goes, You got to talk about it, dude. You got to talk about it. And so, now I talk about it all the time.

With people ask me. And so, you're you can't even have like a beer. It's like It's full throttle and it's freaking, yeah. Yeah, I think I just never got that one, thankfully.

If I drank one right now, man, You would just freak out. Yeah, dude. I'd grab me a cigarette and I'd have a I'd have a case and a carton of cigarettes on the way home, man. Yeah.

Yeah, I have a little bit of that in me. But I don't know. I was always like decent at just saying no at a point. Like just do a little bit.

And you got to think about it, my last 15 years people have been driving me around. Oh, sure. Well, yeah, and that didn't always I never had to drive anywhere. I'm riding buses.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That hasn't always stopped me from drinking.

Understood. If I'm being honest. But I can see how if you didn't have to worry about it, it would just make that even worse. Just rolling down the road.

I mean, it's What's easy to say I'm successful. I never have to drive. Yeah. I can basically do whatever I want to do whenever I want to do it.

I take care of my stuff. Yeah. It's a business where it's celebrated to be a screw up. I know.

You get better songs. Oh, you think so? Dude, I don't remember You can. I'm writing some of the best stuff now sober.

But like dude, I've written I wrote some of my hits. I don't remember writing them, man. Do you Do you have a fear I don't I'm curious if you thought about it. Uh, do you have a fear that people will think like cuz perception in a lot of ways with what songwriting and music is kind of is reality cuz it's all based on how people feel about it.

Music isn't objectively good or bad. So, do you ever get worried that people will just think like, oh, well, he was better when he was drinking or when he wasn't sober? No, I don't worry about that. I hope they're a part of the journey with me.

Um, my life's on records, man. I mean, that's My records have always been my life, my journey. Hopefully they're growing up with me. Hopefully it's a We're all trying to get better, be better, be better husbands, be better fathers, be better be better, you know?

I hope that the stuff I'm writing now is an invitation to be a part of that journey with me. We did that honky-tonking back in the day. We did it. We got the t-shirts, man.

Let's grow up and be better, you know? Yeah, sure. I love that. Cuz I really don't subscribe to the idea that you have to be like tore up or anything to make good I thought for years and years that's just the way you did it, man.

Oh, okay. You just stayed on the road, stayed effed up, wrote songs, recorded them, went back on the road, you know, just rants, repeat. Cuz I went I went I had like really bad stage fright when I first started. And like now, I don't know if you call it necessarily stage fright.

I probably There's anxieties, but they're for different reasons, not necessarily like am I going to be able to sing this or do well. It's more so like did I sell enough tickets? You know what I It's like There's just so much other stuff that you're like have anxiety about. Um but I would use it as a coping mechanism at times, the alcohol, to just get up there with some confidence and just kind of try to bring a party.

But then I went through this phase of a few songs in, three or four songs in, I would have these like they weren't panic attacks, but they would sort of be these uh like just out of control Like I would I guess I would kind of panic in a way and just kind of feel out of control. And then I would like spiral from there. Cuz then it was like if I looked at somebody weird or just like did something weird, then it would I'd like cuz I was kind of a little drunk. Like and I would kind of freak out a little bit.

And then maybe you drink a little bit more or I try to like rally and get out of it. And then moving into like getting up there stone cold sober, I'm like a little bit more nervous when I walk up there. But then like right when I'm starting to play, I'm like in total control. And I enjoy it a lot more.

Like I have all my faculties. Yeah. And like especially in the studio, like I like just being like totally sober. I don't like to be spaced out.

Like I like to be totally there and like capable and be able to You know what I mean? Yeah. But it was definitely like a process to like get used to that. Well, just playing live, you know, you'd find your regiment, you'd stick to that.

And a couple beers too many or a couple beers not enough and you wouldn't be in the right head space. And learning how not to have to do that. And then being in the studio, we used to get cases of like a pallet of Miller Lite and like cases and cases and cases of whiskey and booze. And we'd drink it all, you know?

And like so we had to relearn how to do everything sober. Half the guys in the band have quit drinking, you know? So it's Our rider used to be, you know, five cases of beer, two bottles of whiskey. And now it's Topo Chico and Nerd Clusters.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Which Dude, I don't know Not joking, those are on my rider now.

But I don't know if the Nerds are much better. Yeah, right. They might be worse. They're crack, dude.

Yeah, we have two bags of them on the Like we got Topo Chico and non-alcohol beer and Nerd Clusters are the are the in the deli tray. Oh, in the deli tray. Oh, is that why we got the deli tray over there? Got the sort I'll take it home.

If I don't know if they told you I needed a deli tray. I live 20 minutes from here. I don't We have Nerd Ropes. We have every color feel bad about having Michael here, man.

Like I thought we It was like Michael back there? Yeah. Shout out to Michael back there, local law enforcement. Man, a Decatur, Texas finest.

Thank you for being here. We appreciate it. I from Thank you for protecting me from the staff. Cody had heard some stuff about Cody had heard some stuff about me and this podcast.

And he was like, "We need to have law enforcement here." Yeah. Yeah. I'm just going to go with it.

That was funny. That is funny. Uh so the I find it interesting on your records I would think some people might not know how different every record actually is, like even sonically, uh in the way you guys mix them and even approach them. Like I find that a lot of people think that you kind of like have your thing and you stick to your thing.

But like when I listen through your records, I get Granted, you might use like similar instrumentation, which I think is maybe what people gravitate towards with their ear. And they just are like, "Oh, okay. Like this is Cody Jinks record." But I listen to some of the mixing and even like the approach of the recording and I'm like, "Whoa, this is way different."

Like the one that you put out in 2000 I think it was 17, the one with the wolf on the cover? Yeah. Like that was that was a to me, that was a very different record for you. Yeah.

Especially coming off of Yeah, the Wanting. Yeah. And coming out of the Adobe sound, thought it was different. Yeah.

And so it's like one more, don't like one more. I just I mean, I like that kind of stuff. And I'd be curious what your opinion is on the difference in your I'm so afraid of making the same record twice. You know, kind of going back to what you just said about or what I just said, you know, hopefully the fans are growing with us.

Man, listen, George Strait is not putting out Amarillo by Morning anymore. You know, fast forward to Okay, hold on. Check Yes or No. I would kind of push back on the George Strait thing because I find that his records all kind of until like maybe the 2000s, I think he did I mean, they were a lot they were the same record.

the same, but like you have George Strait he's had a 50-year career essentially, 40-year career, 45-year career. Amarillo by Morning to fast forward to like '98, '99 to Check Yes or No, Okay. completely different stuff to fast forward to How 'Bout Them Cowgirls, you know, like the it's still George Strait. And the changes are probably more subtle than most average music fans would I feel like some of that was technologically driven.

Like even just recording quality. quality. I think that just the way that songs were being written back then cuz he's not a songwriter, you know? Like the songwriting changed and you can tell that his delivery is the same.

His band is the same. His approach is the same. The songs started changing. Um and whether you're writing your own songs or not, he's had an audience that has grown with him.

You know, take another example of a band that does their own songs, like I'm Rolling Stones. Exile on Main Street in the '60s was or what '72 '60s late '60s, whenever it was is vastly different from Voodoo Lounge '94 to what they just dropped last year. You know, um I never want to make the same record twice. I want it to sound like us uniquely, but they're all going to be pretty different, I would say at this point.

I used to get really I still kind of do get frustrated about the record thing. I love the idea that you put together a cohesive I don't know, piece of work that all goes together. But like the idea of it being 12 songs versus eight songs versus four songs versus 20 songs, like I've always found to be a little bit arbitrary. And at times, it's a little frustrating for me cuz like Okay, so like you get a batch of songs together, you book studio time, you have the players, you've got the engineers, and you have the pre-production for it, which is like drum tones and some guitar tones and stuff.

And you kind of get boxed in to some sounds. And like maybe those sounds and tones work for three songs. Like really well for those three songs. And then the other eight, nine, 10, it doesn't really work as well.

But because we like want to make it a whole record, we have to do it all at that one time. And that's always been a little bit frustrating for me, rather than like letting each song independently breathe on its own. Which that would come at the risk of the whole project not sounding super cohesive. Does that make sense?

It's almost like you would sacrifice each song being the best it could absolutely be Yeah. Well, we're I don't know if this is exactly what we're doing right now, but we just finished recording a for what's going to be our record this summer. Four of the songs are from the session back in LA. Uh and I don't want to jump the gun here and say it's going to be 12 cuz I don't know if it's going to be 10, 12, or 14.

We have 20-something songs right now recorded. Right now we're in the process and I can probably tell you in the top 14 to 12 to 10 area. But yeah, I think you have to be mindful of cohesiveness. Um especially cuz in producers have a lot to do with that as well.

Um now, we don't have as much of a hard time with that cuz no matter who's producing us, we have the same band. We don't use session musicians. And our band uses their gear. Like we record with our stuff, you know?

So we don't worry so much. And Josh, our bass player, he also he produces everything. So um this record Has he always produced most everything? He since Yeah, since Adobe.

He did Adobe? He Yeah, he that I know you hear this all the time. He and Charles Godfrey did Adobe. And we just actually left the Adobe studio.

Um me and the band was back down in Adobe last week with Charles again, the guy that did Adobe sessions. We got the whole crew back together 12 years later uh and finished recording this record. Oh, you finished it at Adobe? I thought that Yeah, finished it at Adobe.

I was at Adobe four days ago. Where is that in El Paso? Yeah. Okay.

Yeah. I was in I was out there for 11 days finishing up the record in El Paso. And then um I flew to Nashville to write for 2 days. And I flew home, got home the day before yesterday.

There was There was a sound at that place. There was also something on that record, too, about I'd be curious what you think about it. Your vocals were much crisper. Yeah.

From that record compared to pretty much all the other ones in my opinion. Like crisp as in like present more present probably brighter, okay. Okay. And they did have like a little sizzle on them, which I like.

Yeah. Cuz like to me that's kind of brings out you kind of have you have a low voice, but it's raspy, too. Yeah. Which is that like a really natural kind of little sizzle rasp thing in there.

Yeah. Yeah, and sometimes if that's not brought out like either through like Producers either love that or hate that. Okay. Well, that's been my experience.

That's kind of funny. Yeah. What do you think? Yeah.

What do you like? Yeah, it's forbid the artist decides Well, yeah, cuz I don't well, I don't know if the I don't know if that rasp thing you have is working right now or it is like I hope to God it is because it's what I sound like, you know. Well, and yours isn't like It's not overly, no. No, not at all.

It's just a smokiness. Yeah. It's just cigarettes and whiskey, man. I like the sizzle on it.

Mhm. I did I do, too, and a lot of that came from singing metal from you know, years before I was singing country, screaming my head off and you know, thankfully enough it the after the years of doing that it recovered enough. I didn't know if I could sing country whenever I was started singing country. I'd never sang country before.

So, does it ruin your voice? The metal screaming? things to my voice that are irreparable, but that have given it the distinct sound that it's got. So, I can't look back and say I wish I wouldn't have done that because I sound the way I do because of what I did back then and um yeah, it's kind of what came first, the chicken or the egg.

Art imitating life or is life imitating art? I screamed so much and smoked and drank so much I got rid of any chance of having a beautiful vibrato or anything like that, but then again the voice that I have came from years of doing it the way I did it. Yeah, you can hear a story in your voice. Sure.

As much as the story you're telling. Sure. Yeah. I In the guys that I gravitated towards whenever I was younger were those guys that you could hear a story in the voice.

Randy Travis, story in the voice. Keith Whitley, story in the voice. You know, Merle Haggard, story in the voice. Lefty Frizzell, which is was huge when I was growing up, you know, story in the voice.

Did you get [expletive] for trying to merge some genres a little bit? get [expletive] for that. From who? Is it I get [expletive] from the country people for trying to I get It's not all of them, but I get [expletive] from some country people for I cross over a lot with the rock and metal people, and then the I get [expletive] from the rock and metal people that are, you know, like We played a festival with Black Label Society up in Pennsylvania.

It was us, Black Label Society, and Clutch. Um and uh That's awesome. It is It's super cool, you know, and we know those guys and love those guys, and it's a lot more fun for the bands to say, "Hey, let's get together and jam." You have all these different kinds of And then the crowd goes, "Why the hell did you invite a country band here?"

You know, it's you can always be the most You can always be the most rock band at a country show. You cannot be the most country band at a rock show. That is a Do you have a t-shirt? Words to live by, brother.

I've been saying that for a long time. It has to be a t-shirt. Yeah. Yeah.

If you don't, I'm going to steal it. Learned it the hard way. I don't know even know where that came from. I can tell you that actually That came from West Bayless from the Steelwoods.

That's where that came from. That's where I learned it. you I'm glad you gave the credit. Yeah, I cuz I had to think about that for a minute, but yeah, that's where that came from.

knows somebody'd blow you up in Yeah. in the comments. Yeah. Actually, that was West Bayless in Yeah.

2017. Yeah, people like to correct you in comments. Yeah, people are tough online, dude. People are tough online.

People are tough online. People sure are neat. You know, we don't get political or I don't express my opinions personally or about anything online. Everything's business.

It's, you know, where we're going to be, here's some new songs, hope you dig the music. Our shows are the same way. It is not one way or the other. I'm not trying to preach anybody to heaven.

Our job is to get there and entertain people with song, and I tell people every night at our show. I said, "You guys got three I said, said, "How many of you guys watch the news?" You know, everybody'll be like, "Yeah!" or whatever.

I'll be like, "Good. You got 3 hours to get away from all that [expletive] Good for you. We are not going to do any of that. I said, "Turn it."

I'll say like something like, "Hey, you Turn look to your left and your right. Look at your neighbors." You know, and everybody's like, "All right." Those are people you're going to be jamming out with for the rest of the night.

Let's have a good time. Try not to spill too much beer on your neighbor. You know, and dude, we don't have You know. I did want to talk about abortion, though.

Bring it on. Let's go. Let's do it, man. We already talked about how big of a drunk I was.

You think abortion bothers you? We uh Oh, we're who were we talking to uh Was it Edie? Yeah. Oh, I love Edie.

I was just uh I was talking to Courtney Patton yesterday about a song that me and her and Jason wrote, as a matter of fact. Yeah. Yeah, Edie was on here like a week ago or something. a long time.

first time I met him. Dude, I've been such a lone wolf like Yeah. my entire existence. It's like Jason and I's first ever paying like show was together.

When? We had a regular gig on Tuesday nights at the Longhorn Saloon in Stockton. Uh years and years ago, man. Y'all would just probably sit up there and just get ripped.

Just hammered. Yeah. Yeah, nobody was there. I love Jason.

Anyway, what were you going to say? Uh oh, yeah. No, he I brought What did I say? I brought up something about transgender.

I was making some What was I talk Oh, genres, maybe? What was I talking about? Yeah. Like the country's There is definitive country and then Oh, yeah.

Like when you're describing Like I love blending genres, but I also understand the necessity of like words matter. You know, if you're in the studio and you tell a drummer like, "Hey, I'm looking for like a Motown thing." He's going to play a Motown thing. And you can't be like, "No, no, no, no.

Like country." And he's like, "But you said Motown." And you're like, "Yeah, but I mean country." It's like, "No, words matter."

Like this is But I'm not opposed to like blending those things together. So, anyways, but then I like somehow it's like "Yeah, I mean there's guys and there's girls." You know, I said something like that. And then an abortion.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And Edie goes, he was like, "Dude, I ain't touching that with 10-ft pole, man." And I was like, "I don't know if that's the analogy you want to use for what I'm talking about." Jason is uh Jason is so uh non He's Jason's just like, "Yeah, bro."

He's about as chill as they come. Yeah, y'all can have that over there. Jason is cool as a cucumber. He's always been that way.

He's a freaking thinker. Very deep-thinking individual. Smart. Uh I enjoy I've known him for a long, long time.

I enjoy when we get to hang out together. He's We have great conversations. We talk He's a wordsmith. Every word matters to him.

Mhm. Yeah. Y'all wrote Y'all written a lot together, right? Uh we've written a couple together.

Okay. Yeah. Like on your on your projects or No, uh the last song we wrote together uh he put on his last one. Uh song called Mean Spirits.

Okay. I'll listen I'll listen to it. Yeah. Mean Spirits.

Mean Spirits, yeah. Yeah. What's it about? Drinking.

Did he quit? Or he kind of in the middle of it? quit He quit drinking to my knowledge he quit drinking when he was on the road. Yeah.

Um and he won't drink before shows, and he won't drink the night after a show, and he won't drink the day before a show. So, kudos to him for being able to do that. I wish I could do that. Yeah.

I mean, I guess I can. I It's I don't know. Old booze brain, though, he's a tough person to hang out with sometimes. Mhm.

Gosh, I've been such a douche so many times. And some things that I just don't would just so ordinarily not be a good idea, they just start to seem like a good idea. Yeah. That's what happens.

Time and time again. Yeah, and I'm I mean, I'm Yeah, I'm married, love my wife, and there's just I just don't Yeah. I'm out. Yeah.

Well, I decided I wanted to stay married cuz I did love my wife so much, and yeah, I wanted my children not to grow up and resent me cuz I'd spent you know, I'd spent I got to know my kids at COVID. And when COVID hit in 2020, my daughter was 11, and my son was eight. And uh you know, I mean, I my wife and I've always been married. I would come home.

I just I spent their entire lives on the road. And it was okay cuz I would come home and still be a drunk. And I'd be a drunk on the road, too. I just wouldn't be at home.

But when I came home for an extended period of time, the being drunk all the time thing started to not be good for the dynamic of that. Yeah, dude. A tornado comes through. And I Yeah, and I realized I liked being at home more and I'm not on the road as much as I used to be.

Like I'll do Dude, I'm only doing 40 or 50 shows this year. Is that Was that a weird change? Going from 210 to 40 or 50? Yeah.

Going I mean, from being on the road 9 months out of the year to being on the road 3 months out of the year. Yeah. Yeah, and what a different time we live in. I really struggle with that.

Like how do you Obviously, you got people that become super successful. They put out their first song and they explode on the internet. And they've never played. Yes, the last of the road dogs.

I was talking about that a couple days ago. I was I was writing with uh David Lee Murphy and Bobby Pinson. Bobby wrote Don't Ask Me How I Know. David Lee wrote Party Crowd and Dust on the Bottle and all that.

And we were talking about being the last of the dogs. There's no road dogs anymore. There's not kids getting in the van and doing it like we did it anymore. Yeah, cuz You don't have to.

Well, you don't have to, but there's some of us that would Well, okay. It comes at a cost. Mhm. Big time.

I always kind of laugh sometimes that some of the old school guys like before the internet. Yeah. Sometimes I think that they might giggle at some of us that want to go out there and road dog it. Cuz they would They would just be like, "Do you realize how much I gave up?

Yeah. I gave up my family. I gave up like my health, my all sorts of things so that I could go out there on the road. You don't have to now and now you're just convinced that you need to.

And I get the necessity of it, but Where I find you can see the difference between the types of people is that like the road dog Like Charlie Starr and I just recorded a song called In My Blood. And you know, Charlie's you know, Blackberry Smoke's been together 25 years or however and we've become good friends with those guys over the years and toured a lot with them last year and we wrote a song together and we're you know, that song's talking about just being a dog. It's like we sat in honky-tonk bars and learned how to play in front of five people for 4 hours, not make a 30-second TikTok video, get 8 million likes, get a record contract, be on a private jet. Buddy, I wasn't on a [expletive] tour bus till I was 37 years old.

Uh so is there I'm not jealous of it cuz like my journey's been a grind. I'm still in the grind. I'm freaking just grinding. If you ever stop grinding, you're dead.

Sure. Yeah. But I'm not like jealous of somebody that just has like immediate success. I'm actually There's a part of me that's actually like I've learned a lot.

Yeah. And if when I put out put out my first music, if it had just exploded Mhm. there's a real good chance Yeah, I mean, it's almost a guarantee that I would be like not as I wouldn't be the person I want to be. Yeah.

I wouldn't have the perseverance and the character qualities that I have now. Not saying I got it all figured out, but you know, you pray for pray for like certain uh character traits and stuff and God's going to like put you through things to be able to build that character in you. Mhm. And so sometimes I'm like I'm a little bit like scared for You're like freaking 18 or something, you just explode.

Now you got like three tour buses and good luck. I think that's why, you know, good Lord didn't see fit for me to have, you know, success until I was almost 40. We were on the road 10 years before anybody knew who we were. You know, it's probably good.

I probably would have killed myself uh you know, partying, you know, back then and I've always been kind of a slow learner and a late bloomer. And you know, going back to the you know, people that get famous now different ways, being TikTok overnight sensation. I don't begrudge that. True talent's going to rise.

Like take somebody like Zach Top. Dude, like I'm so in that guy's corner. He's unbelievable. like he's true talent, you know, he bluegrass kid raised up, you know, um really just uh a nice guy by everybody's account, you know, man, I'm in that guy's corner.

So I don't begrudge people of how they've done it if they're good when they get there. You run more of a risk of getting um getting somebody in there that thinks that they want to be famous, but ha- hadn't put the time and effort into figuring out if they really want to do it or not. So you have a lot of busts now. Um your percentage of busts is going up.

You know? Like Do you want Yeah, do you want the results or do you want the actual work that leads to the results? Right. Cuz record companies have always looked at artists as Record companies are wildcatters.

They drill holes. They hope one of those holes is going to hit. You know, they're going to drill 100 holes. They're going to have 100 artists for that one artist that hits.

And you got to drill a lot more holes now. Look at these TikTok kids. Yeah. Yeah, um the Zach Top thing is interesting to me cuz he is just so talented.

Mhm. Cream will does rise to the top. I'm a little curious about genres though. Like I feel like in the last like 10 years we've just been like kind of in a nostalgia phase.

So like anything that's throwback sounds like something that's happened before becomes really popular. Wouldn't it funny cuz now you're looking at you know, back in the 90s and 80s you were looking at what people were calling the neo-traditionalists, you know, the people like they were saying Keith was a neo-traditionalist and Randy was a neo-traditionalist and things of that nature. Now we have like neo-neo-traditionalists or whatever it is. I don't know, you know?

Do you think there's anything new that can be done musically? So for instance, even in the 90s like you had the grunge thing that was like we hadn't heard that before. Yeah. And then even pop punk, like it or hate it, we hadn't heard I think they're trying.

I think that they're always trying. I think they're trying right now. I think that I think that You're seeing it right now. I There's always going to be crossovers.

There's always There's always going to be different kinds of things uh coming out. People are always going to be pushing the envelope. I don't think that I think there's so many genres and subgenres now. You like take metal for instance.

There's 85 different subgenres of metal, you know, why? You know, I mean, it's good or bad, you know, country, you know, pop country, bro country, traditional country, alt country, outlaw country, neo-traditional country, traditional country, you know, western uh Yeah, then you can do all those for folk. Yeah. I mean, Americana Yeah.

you know, singer-songwriter, uh you know, what kind of folk are we talking you know, I mean, it's limitless. So I think just great bands are going to continue. You know, there's only so many chords and keys you can you can do, but there's always going to be really talented people that are taking the same chords and keys that we all do and make us go, "Wow!" You know?

So if you were starting right now, like if right now was your 2009, 2008, would you approach it the same way? That's a great question. I don't know. Um cuz like you said um with social media and everything being different.

I remember when MySpace hit and we could put three songs online. We thought that was the coolest thing in the whole world. It was. It was.

Like it was really cool. So I don't know. I don't know if I would do things differently and try to utilize You know, I came from like back in the 90s when I started playing bars, we would go with CDs that we had burned with demos to shows we couldn't afford to get into and pass them out when people were coming out to get in their cars. We're still putting flyers under people's windshield wipers.

You're saying the 90s? That was in the 90s when I first started playing, yeah. Was that in the metal? That was in metal, yeah.

Okay. Yeah. So I mean, it's I don't know. Things have changed so much.

I can't say looking back now 2008, 2009, would I have done anything different? I Would you Would you still just make a record and then go road dog it? Probably. Probably I would.

Yeah, cuz I always I always thought there was merit in that. I always I always thought that if you pass the smell test in Witchita, Kansas or Dubuque, Iowa or wherever in Oklahoma or wherever in Minnesota or wherever. If you could pass the smell test and have 40 or 50 people at your show, next time there was going to be 100 people. And then the next time there was going to be 500 people.

And now we go to Dubuque, Iowa and sell out the only arena they have. Yeah. Why? Well, I guess to answer your question, the formula we used worked.

So I guess I would still do it. Uh it was just we did it the hard way. Yeah, so like a lot of those smaller venues that most bands are getting their start in, just going out there and grinding. Mhm.

Like a lot of those venues are going out of business. Yeah. Um Yeah. And the whole idea of having a built-in crowd is pretty much nonexistent nowadays in my experience.

Yeah. So where you can just go show up and play for some people that have never heard of you just doesn't exist anymore. It's like they have to find you online and then they'll go to your show. Which makes it really difficult to just go road dog it.

Cuz if you are just objectively smart about it hard back then. I guess that's why it took us you know, we were out there for 10 years before anybody knew who we were. Um I mean, really. So I mean it was tough back then.

Yeah, how did you like really finance it from the get-go? I went um at one point I was I was uh over $100,000 in debt. That makes me feel better. Yeah.

For real. Thanks. I went Well, this is this is an overnight success story, right? Like I went from being um almost 200,000.

My wife and I went when we were 37 years old. This is a true story and I've said this before, so it's not like this isn't groundbreaking. I haven't heard it. 37 years old, we went from being almost $200,000 in debt to having after my first publishing deal went from being almost $200,000 in debt to after all of our bills were paid off and we paid for everything that we had and everything, we had $700,000 in the bank.

Overnight. I was start Jess? I was I was He's got keep betting on your boy. I was We'll get there.

We'll get there. It took me that long and it took it took that much of just us doubling down and doubling down and doubling down and borrowing more money to make a record and maxing that credit card out to make a record and maxing gas cards out to get down the road and I couldn't see out of it. Um Man, you had kids at the time. So Wife and kids.

I had a I had an 8-year-old and a 5-year-old that were poor and they didn't even know. How often did you have that question of like, man, is this really what I need to be doing or do I need to like I never had a plan B. I never ever questioned what I was doing. I knew I'd pull out of it.

I knew I was writing good enough songs. I knew that we were making an enough headway. I knew that our product, whenever we went to play, was going to make people come back and not only make them come back, they're going to bring their families, they're going to bring their friends. I knew we were doing that.

I never stopped believing that we could do that. Not once? Not once. No.

We wouldn't have made it. We are an anomaly. We are the bar band that made it. You go look at any other band out on the road right now in the country music genre, there are not bar bands out there.

There are guys that have played in bars, but there aren't guys out there that were playing all over the country in the [expletive] holes we were playing at with no backing, no funding, no record label, no nothing. We're the only ones that made it out. We're the only successful bar band, honky-tonk band. We're honky-tonk band.

That's what we are. We're country, rock, and rhythm and blues, man. I came from the school of Gary Stewart. You put us in a biker bar, you put us in a country bar, you put us in a dance hall, you can put us in any [expletive] bar you want and we won't just hang, we'll take it over.

I mean, we've always been that way. We've always had that mentality. We had to. It was survival for us.

There was no other choice. Yeah. We had no other choice. We would live on the road for six or seven weeks at a time.

Couldn't afford to go home in between runs. We would you know, I Whydie and I did so well because we've been out on the road for a month or two at a time and we would take three or four days off and we'd go to some town we hadn't played and we'd take the bar over and we would throw our own shows on nights off, man. We would tell people, "Hey, we're here. We've been out on the road.

We're having a night off in wherever. Both bands are here. Let's throw down." We'd invite a town out to come drink with us, man, and we got to be known as those guys that like we were everybody's band.

We were the people's band, dude. We were the guys that wanted to party and throw down with them. We'd drink with them before the shows, we'd drink with them during the shows, we'd drink with them after the shows. We'd crash on their couches.

Yeah. It was dude, it was everything you thought it was, it was. Yeah. It almost feels like for me, you get so far down the road, you're so far and you've committed so much that you can't quit cuz there's no other option.

Like you can't flush it all down the toilet. So, it's like literally the only other option is just to is you just keep going. But then when you look back, it's almost like I sometimes tell people like I wouldn't do it again. Because when I look back because which is part of like hope and not knowing what the future brings, like there's something important to that.

Yeah. Cuz if you knew exactly all the work and all the grind and the amount of time that it was going to take, like I probably wouldn't do it again. But the fact that I didn't know that is what just kept me putting one little foot in front of the other. And then you look back and you go, "Oh my gosh."

And I'm not even like I'm not even remotely close to how much you've put into it. Six or seven years ago uh Paul Cauthen and I were sitting on my back porch. And Paul's doing good. I talked to him the other day.

He's taking some time off. And I asked him cuz uh we're not normal people. That people do what we do for a living, we're not normal people. Um and that's okay cuz all the nobody's really got it together.

Nobody's really normal. We're just a little more abnormal than most people are. And I and we're sitting on the on the back porch with a glass of whiskey one evening and when Paul's my friend and has been for years and years. Paul Cauthen on stage is not Paul sitting on my back porch.

You guys got to understand that. He's not the same dude. It's like me and you sitting here, you know? And I said we were sitting there talking about life.

Paul grew up in Church of Christ. It's a lot of what's wrong with us. Um a lot of what's wrong with us. It's also a lot of what's wrong with us.

Um and we were talking about life one night and I said, "Paul, I said, if you had it to do all over again and you could choose the Matrix style, like red pill or blue pill. The red pill is that you are what you are right now. You're crazy. You're Paul Cauthen.

You're We're out doing what we do. We're writing these songs. We're living these songs. It's it is what it is.

We have to deal with hurting our families. We have to deal with being gone. We have to deal with our personal issues that come with all of it. All the things.

All of it. Or you take the other pill and you're Joe 9-to-5 and you're completely happy. And it makes you happy to get up every day at 8:00 in the morning and go to work by 9:00, come home at 5:30, kiss your wife, take your kids to ball practice. God bless those people.

Those people keep the world turning around. Which pill do you take? He looks over and he goes, "I wouldn't change a damn thing." Like if you had to do it all over again, I'd rather go back, do it again, get the stories, man.

You know? Like Joe 9-to-5 is awesome. I hope I hope to God my kids don't do this for a living. I really do.

They've seen what it's done to me. They've seen what it's done to my friends. They've seen they my friends my kids can count more of my friends that have been to rehab than hadn't. You know?

Um They've seen what it's done to marriages. They've seen what it's done. They've seen what it's done. That what this business has done to people.

But it's what we are. We didn't choose it. I guess. I guess it chose us, you know?

So, I don't really have a choice in the matter. I'd have to do it again. Well, I personally would be sitting at my job and be writing songs. Yeah, I would, too.

I think I would, too, you know? feel trapped cuz I would have no way of getting them out. Mhm. And then I still would try to.

Yeah. And then that's literally how it started for me. It's like I just had to get them out. And then you just send them to people and you start posting a couple online and then people are like, "Hey, uh that's like it's not bad, you know?

It's not bad." And you're like, "Oh." Well, not bad is room to grow. Not bad can be great.

Oh, yeah. Coming from my family, that's like a freaking top-notch compliment. Understood. Yeah.

I come from the whole like at the family reunion, they goad you into playing. Mhm. dude. Don't be a push.

Come on, play. Mhm. Mhm. And then you play and they stop you in the middle of it and they're just like, "Don't ever do that again.

That was terrible." That's awful. You're like, "Probably has a little something to do with my stage fright." You know, stage fright, you said that a while ago.

I have it bad. Hey, what I will say though, I've always had stage not to throw totally throw my family under the bus, Yeah. what if it was really good what I was showing them, Yeah. they'd let me finish.

That Oh, that's nice. So, you know what I mean? And they would sit there and go I had an uncle I have an uncle that he was actually really inspirational with me starting, ironically, and he just we'd sit there and get like super drunk and just rip cigarettes and I'd show them songs and he'd grab the guitar and stop it and be like, "Don't ever play that again." Oh, no.

But there was times that he would let me finish and he would listen. And he would just be like, I guess that would depend on did your uncle have a good ear or was he just he didn't like that one for some reason? No, there was something about it that just didn't hit him right. It just wouldn't hit.

And like I sit on the side of like I don't resent listeners or people that don't know anything musically. I actually like their feedback cuz they're listening to it in the purest sense. Like if I have to explain it to them why they should like it, it's not very good. I would rather somebody like uh I cited David a while ago.

David is a song of ours that sounds really fun and upbeat and people love to dance with it. It's one of the saddest songs we have. It's a very upbeat fast fun song with really sad lyrics. And some people are I look down every night and some people are crying.

And I look down every night and some people are rocking out. This is their favorite jam. It doesn't matter why. Well, then at that point it's not even yours anymore.

It's theirs. Yeah. It's this is my favorite dance song. This is my favorite song cuz David was my brother.

Two completely different They're both right. They are. Yeah. For totally different reasons.

Yeah. Yeah, and so somebody's saying I don't like that. They're 100% right. They don't.

They don't. Yeah. And like then you can go down the road of like why and okay, what do I just need Is it actually that bad or do I just need to change this or was it just the way I performed it? You know, who knows?

There's a million different things. Sure. But what he would do is if he liked it, he would he actually has one of the funniest phrases. He would sit there and he would just be like "You have no idea how much more I want to say I hate it than I like it.

But I like it." Like he says it would make me so much happier to say I hate it. like a record executive, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Like he would begrudgingly like it in a way. But it's more just he just wanted to talk some [expletive] you know. And it was just like I can't get over it. I like it.

Yeah. Which actually was really it meant a lot cuz it took a lot for him to finally like something. It's still all these years later. I mean, you've been writing songs for years now.

I've been writing songs for you now. I just wrote a song for my dad. I wasn't afraid to show it to him. We recorded it.

I was afraid that he wouldn't love it as much as I loved writing it for him. Now I wrote a song for my dad, so of course he loves it, right? You know, but I'm 44 and it's still like I hope you like it, Dad, you know? Yeah.

That never goes away. Which I guess is a form of stage fright. Well, you I man I just always thought of that was like caring. I Stage Bruce Lee said nervousness is a sign of preparedness and I don't I don't know if that's true or not.

If that's the case, then before every show I'm about as [expletive] prepared as every guy in the room. Cuz you're not nervous? I am so nervous. Oh, he was saying if you are nervous, that shows you are prepared.

shows you're prepared, yeah. That or you just don't know crap and you're just going to bomb the test and that's why you're nervous, but otherwise it's I don't know if I fully agree. Maybe it's a certain type of nervousness. Maybe so.

Cuz there's like an There's like a finish reading the rest of the book. You just read the preface. That was the title. That was an excerpt that my buddy showed me.

I was like, "Huh! I'm going to take that nugget. Bruce Lee guy is full of shit." Yeah.

I think it's the type of nervous I think like that kind of in the zone like you're anxious but in the sense like you're ready to go do your thing is different than the like I'm just really nervous about whether or not I can do the thing. Yeah, I get I get in my own head sometimes. I'm like, "What am I doing? What am I doing?

I had to go to therapy and realized that I had a condition called um imposter syndrome. Uh a lot of people with imposter syndrome get uh stage fright because they have this feeling of why do I belong up here? Yeah, the irony of you grinding for so long Yeah. and then finally being there and then questioning why you're there.

It's funny to people cuz people are like, "Oh, you have stage fright or you get scared or nervous?" I'm like, "Dude, we're all nervous up there. There's not a guy on that stage that's not nervous. I would be really alarmed if my guys weren't at least a little bit nervous before every show.

Yeah. So, where do you think the imposter syndrome really comes from then? Have y'all unpacked that? Yeah, I could going down the rabbit hole of therapy.

Yeah, it's because uh you know, every artist kind of develops a character on stage. Every artist has a character on stage. I Dwight Yoakam is not freaking Dwight Yoakam when he goes home to his wife. Do you think that's to varying degrees between artists?

Yeah, I think some people live it more than Okay. And when I was living the character is when I got into the most trouble. And then when I was pulling out of living in the character that I had created um I started not liking what I saw and I was about 38 39 and I almost retired. About 5 years ago I really came close.

I was drinking way too much. My problem had gotten to be a big problem and I didn't want to do it anymore and I didn't like who I saw in the mirror and um I didn't uh I didn't know where I belonged. Uh Some of that still exists cuz I don't I don't still don't belong anywhere. You know, I'm still in a category of my own.

I don't I sell more tickets than most people on Nashville radio. I sell more records than most people on Nashville radio. Um I've never won an ACM, a CMA or a Grammy and those people on those shows there's usually only about four or five of them that sell more tickets than I do. A lot of people on those shows are asking to open for me.

Mhm. So, it's weird to be that famous and not have a place. It's weird to be an artist's artist, somebody that like other artists look at and really respect and the records look at and say, "I hate that guy. I want him so bad."

It's a weird place. You That's a super weird place. everywhere and nowhere. It's a very strange paradox.

Oh, dude, you're freaking preaching to the choir. This is actually very inspirational for me. Uh Yeah, cuz it's been it's been at the detriment of my career for sure to just do what I want to do. Play the music that I want to play, dress how I want to dress.

Yeah. It hasn't been maybe the smartest thing. Uh but it's the most authentic to myself and I just can't That's art though. That's art and that's what it really comes down to.

What a lot of what you hear I'm not saying country specific on radio nowadays, it's not it's not art. It's sales, you know? It's um it's a quick buck for the record companies to you know, put something plastic out and have a quick sale. It's a pet rock.

You know, quick money here, quick money there. Um you know, art in its truest sense like the way we record records. Like when I record a record, there's nobody in the studio that has the title of any kind of manager. There's nobody in the studio that has the title any sort of record label affiliation.

Um it's me and the band and who's producing and engineering. Um there's no outside It's art at its purest. It's we make the purest music art form we can. That's what we are happy doing.

That's I'm not saying that's everybody's bag. I'm not that saying that's what everybody should do. To me as an artist, not a not a record not even a recording artist. They give that title to people that can't write worth a [expletive] I'm a songwriter.

You know. Yeah, the recording artist. That's the good thing about not having a label. I say whatever I want.

I just I don't get in trouble. refreshing. Yeah, I'm not mean to anybody. I Look, man, I have so many friends and they're in mainstream country.

People are like, "You're friends with that person?" I'm like, "Absolutely. I'm They're a good person. It doesn't Yeah.

It doesn't matter if I like their songs or not. Oh, yeah, dude, the tribalism in music is bizarre. The idea that like because somebody makes a certain type of music you don't like, it's like you're you like hate them. in country because you have a lot of bands that are put together.

You want to go to a country festival and see a bunch of bands sizing each other up. Go to a country festival. You want to go to a rock and roll festival and watch a bunch of bands cheering for each other? Go to a rock and roll festival.

Well, I think that's probably been what is the toughest thing about being a loner for me is that music like the reason I got into it to begin with was a collaborative thing. Like I liked doing it with people. I liked jamming with buddies and writing a song together, singing together. I never particularly liked the idea of just me like doing my thing out in front of people.

Did you see that little shoulder right there? It was good. It's good. You've been practicing that one.

But I never really liked that part of the I liked it to be like collaborative. Yeah. And I guess that's the weird thing is like the further I get along in it like the more isolated I become because I'm just trying to just be authentic but then that weirds so many people out. I'll give you an example.

Last year when Luke Combs asked us to go to that stadium tour with us. We were playing with um a bunch of bands I really like. We met Hailey Whitters. She's very sweet.

Um Wilder Blue, which that's Paul Eason and uh and Zane Williams who I both have known I've known both of those guys 20 years. Um I mean, like friends with those guys, you know, Charles Wesley Godwin have friends with him. Have been friends with him, you know, like on a personal level. But you know, Luke's one of those ones like people I went out on that tour they're like you're on a stadium tour with Luke Combs.

I mean, that's you know, Nashville big Nashville and you know what I'm saying? I'm like Do you realize how big a set of balls Luke Combs has asking me to run direct support on a stadium tour? Do you understand in Nashville the ripples that created? People going, "Holy crap.

He's taking Jinks with him." For two reasons. A, we're normally going to blow anybody off the stage we go before and everybody knows that and we've lost a lot of opening gigs because of it. He said, "I don't care."

He said, "I want that guy out on the road with me cuz he's badass." And he freaking put his money where his mouth is. We got paid more than any other direct support opener I've ever even heard of in my life. He flat out told me like, "Dude, anything you need, anything y'all want, we are so glad you're here."

His whole crew was that way. Just a gentleman and just super kind and, you know, as big in Nashville guys you can get, you know, and so it's like, "No, dude, I love that guy. That guy that guy went out on a limb for me. Like, you go out on a limb for me, bro, and I'm the dog that don't go away."

Now, there probably are some acts that if they asked you to and I mean, yeah, I'm sure there's all sorts of people that have like wanted to Yeah. You know, I'm sure there's some people that are like, "Nah, I'm going to pass." Like I usually just tell them to add another zero. If it's if it's to just to Yeah, but even then, like I'm sure there's some that like you just flat-out wouldn't ever be associated with it.

Well, sure. Not even like cuz you don't like him as a person. It's just musically. This just makes I there was the that's my answer when I say add another zero is I'm not playing with you.

Yeah, sure. They would never be able to come up with the extra zero. Yeah. I'm going to be making more than you if you add another zero.

Like you know, you know, you're not going to want to do that. What if they said yes? I've I've gotten them close before. It's actually kind of Dude, that would be epic.

But yeah, it yeah, no. We're nice. We're we really are nice. We just we don't play with who we don't want to play with.

Like I don't play with anybody. I don't get put on bills I don't want to unless it's a festival and I can't control who I play with. I don't say yes to opening for people I don't want to play with and I don't have people opening for me that I don't want them to. I hand-select every one of my openers.

We have Tenille Townes and Shane Smith and the Saints going out with us this year. I hand-picked both of them. Mhm. That's my decision.

Yeah. So, the new record? Hopefully this summer. Hopefully this summer.

It'll come out this summer? Yeah, it'll come out this year. Yeah. Hopefully, I mean, barring any major catastrophes.

Um You know, we everything's in the can right now. The song selection is still being done, you know, sending it to mix and master, all the things that take months, artwork, you know, you know. It's yeah, now I'm done with it. I'm done I'm done writing for it.

I'm done singing for it. I'm on to the next one. I'm writing new stuff now already 4 days later, you know. Yeah.

So, yeah, I'm checked that off and now it's up to the staff to get the mix, the master, all the all the packaging, all the all the product ready. I'm out. I'll go out and support it this summer. Yeah.

Yeah. You'll just play it through the fall? Yeah. We'll um we kick our tour off uh in a month in New Orleans.

Uh don't have a lot in March or April. Picks up in May. Uh have pretty good in June. Go to Canada in June.

Uh July, I don't think I'll be home month whole month of July. Uh I'll be gone most of August as well, but we're going to try to cram the majority of the show into 3 months this year cuz uh more than likely I'll be going to uh I might be I'm probably going to Europe in No- uh November. Um I'll be done in the states probably in October this year. Yeah.

Yeah. Well, sick, dude. Well, I'm ready to hear it. We're ready to get it out, man.

We released in March of last year and hopefully by the time we release this one it'll be a year and a half before uh a year and a half between full-length uh albums, man. We're looking forward to it. Yeah, man. Well, I've always been a huge fan, so thanks for doing this.

Thank you. I appreciate it, man. Yeah, I uh Yeah, anytime, dude. You're right This is the closest one to the house I've had in a long time.

it worked out perfect. Yeah, I just man, yeah, I'm up here in this like I said, my daughter's right over there and this is this is home, so my pleasure. Thanks for having me. Yeah, for sure.

The uh Yeah, the last time I saw you was in Nashville probably 6 years ago. And it was backstage at some charity event. And like John Daly was there, a bunch of people. Oh, that was Jamey Johnson's thing.

That's right. Yeah. But shoot, that was like probably 7 years ago, 6 years ago or something. That was probably 7 or 6 7 years ago.

It was me and Ward Davis ended up John Daly is the only one that didn't have Oh, Ron White was there, too. Ron White was there. That was the other one. Yeah, Ron was there, John Daly was there, uh Lee Ann Womack was there, uh God, Darryl Worley was there.

He was. Yeah. Um me and Ward Brent Cobb was there. Um and Ward and I ended up on John's tour bus.

John's the only non-singer there that and had a tour bus. He's the only person there that had their bus there. None of us had our buses there. John did.

Me and Ward ended up on John's bus that night. We still drank both of us. Ward's been sober for going on 4 years now. I'm about a year and a half and John says, "Hey, will you come up on the bus and pick some songs?"

John likes to play John's a sweetheart. He's funny as hell. He's a sweet guy. He really is.

He's funny. And he don't mean nobody no harm. He likes to have a good time. Yeah.

But uh but he says uh "Come on, play a few songs." And me and Ward are like, "Okay." You know, we're already lit, you know, we've been at this charity thing and drinking our share of free booze and whatnot. We get up there and we're passing the guitar around and John's daughter was there with him.

She was hanging out, so he passed the guitar around. He goes, "Hey, let me make y'all a couple drinks." We're like, "All right, cool." And he goes uh he goes, "Let me make y'all a John Daly."

And Ward goes, "All right, couple John Dalys." And he goes, "Okay." John goes over to his sink, his little galley area, and he grabs a bottle of vodka and uh three glasses and puts ice in all the glasses and then just fills all the glasses up to the top with vodka. And then he hands one to me and he hands one to Ward.

It's just a full glass of vodka. You just have to act like it's totally normal. On the rocks. That's a John Daly.

So, this John Daly is sure like straight Tito's. But that's okay. Back then we were drinking anyway. Ward ended up ended up having to leave the bus.

He went out, threw up in some bushes Oh. and had puke all in his beard and took his sock off and he was wiping his face with his sock and he puts his sock back on. And then he came back on the bus and that's the best part of it. Nobody would have known any of that except he told us all what he did.

Man, I just went out there and puked and I just had it all in my beard and I just took my sock off and cleaned it and then put it back on. Yeah, you didn't have And then you told us. All right, yeah. Did he continue to drink?

That night? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I have I have a picture of Ward in my hotel room that night.

The next morning Ward and I got up and wrote uh Same Kind of Crazy as Me. Oh, wow. [expletive] hungover as [expletive] Well, that's how it happened. That's how it happens, man.

So, just uh John Dalys. That's how you that's how you write good songs. Just some John Dalys, man. Yeah.

Oh, gosh. Well, shoot, man. Uh thanks. Thank you.

Yeah. This was a blast. I'm glad to glad to be here. Glad to glad to be on the show, man.

Thank you. Yeah, dude. All right. Well, cool.

See y'all later. Adios. Sing the same melody. I