Tuff Hedeman

Full episode transcript, auto-generated from the audio and lightly formatted (verbatim, not edited).

Purple in the canyon That's where I hide. You know, it's funny cuz you know I'm not anti podcast at all, but I just see people doing them that I'm like Do you really look in the mirror and think anybody gives a [expletive] about what you think? You know what I mean? Well, that's what's great about mine is I get interesting people.

Well, the thing is you know, I think there's some very cool interesting stories that you get to you get to know that you would have never known before, but there just some people out there doing them. I'm like of what value? You know, like and so I had some requests and there was one guy that I didn't particularly care for him and then he asked me about doing it and I'm You know, I said, "Well, how much does it pay?" Ah.

The minute you gets a little Never called back. Yeah, yeah. Well, [expletive] you charged us like $34,000. I know.

Yeah. It's like Cody Johnson, he played he played when I got married a few years ago he came and played one song and said, "Yeah, I'll tell everybody I played I paid you $50,000 Yeah. in silver dollars." You know what's scary about that is for Cody Johnson to play one song, it probably was about 50, 60,000 dollars.

It might have been and this is this is before everybody knew he was Cody Johnson. Oh, really? Yeah. Oh, okay.

So, I got married probably well Well, no, you got married in like '21 or something, didn't you? Yeah, in '20 yeah, '21, yeah. What if I knew like the exact date? That'd be weird.

Well, maybe you could give me a hand so I could my memory. Yeah. Yeah, totally. No, yeah, but it was yeah, he played one song, so.

How long you known him? Oh, probably back before he became Cody Johnson, kind of. He uh I started going to a charity event that Josh Beckett, the baseball player, and Rusty Baker did. We got to be really, really good friends with him, and Beckett was huge.

You know, big music fan, so He Anyway, he liked, he would get to come to the these events, and so I met him I met him at one of those, but Like I said, this was this was before he was Cody Johnson, so Yeah, so what that'd be like late That'd be 2000 I mean, he's been doing it for a long time. 15, 16, 17? Somewhere around that area, yeah. Yeah, where Even a little bit before that, maybe.

always like Were you always super into music? You know, I've always I've always loved music. It's funny cuz growing up I grew up in West Texas, you know, El Paso, mostly in New Mexico, but um I always liked music, you know. When I was younger, I was listening to more rock and roll than I ever did.

No disrespect, you know, everybody talk about George Jones and all that [expletive] That I wouldn't I'm a fan of anybody that does well in good music, but he wouldn't have been my first choice, you know. But my I got to be good friends with Charlie Robison. And so my oldest son, Lane, when he was probably Oh, he's probably 10 or something like that, and uh and we went down and stayed a couple days with Charlie, and Charlie uh was showing him how to play the guitar a little bit. So, one year for Christmas, I called Charlie.

I said, "Hey, I want to want to buy a guitar for Lane for Christmas." And I said, "I don't I know nothing about it. Buy me buy me one or tell me what to buy." And he said, "I'll take care of it."

Days go by. Like two days before Christmas, I call him up and say horrible things to him. I said, "Listen, you son of a [expletive] This is This is my son. This is Christmas."

He said, "Yeah, don't worry. I'll get take care of it." Christmas Eve like 5:00, UPS driver comes driving up. Or no, it was actually FedEx.

Great big box, open it. Got this guitar case looked like it'd been ran over. And open up this old guitar in there and had a handful of signatures on it and uh you know, I called him and told him, "Yeah, yeah, yeah, I got it." He said, "What are you going to do?"

He said, "That's what I'm giving Lane for Christmas." He said, "Have him call in the morning and I'll tell him about it." So, we call him the next morning. And he says, "Yeah, Lane, that's my guitar.

I call it old number one. It's what I wrote my first album on. Bar light, my hometown Sunset Boulevard And that's what he So, every time I'd want to curse and say bad things to Charlie and about Charlie cuz Charlie was hard to like sometimes. Uh, yeah, I think he did have a soft side to him at times.

So, and so, whenever Lane started playing you know, he's my oldest son, my firstborn, so you know, whatever he wanted to do, you know, I tried to support and you know, he started roping when he was real young and we roped every day and then start playing the guitar and really like that and you know, I got to know most everybody in and around Texas country cuz we would he would want to go watch and you know, I'm real good friends One of my best friends in the world is Robert Gallagher, so Oh, I didn't know that. We go down see anybody and everybody at Billy Bob's and plus I'm a music fan, so Yeah. And uh How old's Lane now? He's 34 and he has uh So, Charlie did that when he was like 10?

Yeah. Oh, dang. Yeah. Did he So, he knows now how cool that was?

Oh, yeah. Yeah, well, he the older he got, the more he realized you know, like this I can't remember all this who signed it like Hank Thompson and Jeez. you know, all these old legends that Yeah. So, it's pretty cool.

Yeah, it does make It's always made sense to me why rodeo guys, especially rough stock guys lean more towards rock and roll. Well, yeah, I mean yeah, just kind of upbeat and Come on. Don't give a [expletive] kind of attitude, you know, it never hurts if that's what you do. Yeah.

Um but Yeah, I mean that like I said, I'm I like all kinds of music, so Yeah. Yeah, that is interesting. Old Charlie Robinson, I played his last show with him. Charlie, he came by the house.

I don't know I don't know him very long, but he stopped by my house and Lane was down roping and he was playing the back when they used to do the wolf dances and down around uh in the metroplex and Fort Worth, they closed the streets and huge stages. They'd get 20,000, 30,000 people and they were big deals and he was going to play there and I don't know. We were joking around and said, "You know, I can sing Sunset Boulevard better than you can anyway, so." Anyway, so I'm on the side stage and he said, he said, "Oh, yeah, Michael.

My cowboy buddy over here said he can sing." He said, "Yeah, let's just hear it." And so I just went over and sang the whole thing. He said, "Yeah, but why would I mean, I can sing as good or better than you, so why would why would I do why would why wouldn't I?"

Anyway, so I used to go on stage with him and sing all the time and we had we had a big time. Yeah. He was he was a he was a one-of-a-kind guy. And I always say if uh if everybody felt as good about themselves as Charlie felt about himself, it'd be a pretty happy world.

Cuz he was he was convinced that he was not as big as Elvis, but maybe quite bigger. Oh, yeah. He no lack of confidence. He was pretty sure he was the [expletive] Yeah, confidence is tough.

I can't I have a hard time It feels like it keeps changing for me what confidence is. It's uh it's funny with him with him, he had none. No lack of it at all. I mean, he was convinced he was Great.

Even if even if he was a he was convinced he was a headliner all day, every day. That's That was just that's just how he that's just how he was wired. And you know, his brother Bruce is just the complete opposite, just quiet as a church mouse. Like, you meet him and like the nicest guy you'll ever meet and you know, like how can these guys be related cuz they're you don't think they'd come from the same planet.

Yeah, it seems like it's interesting. When you're actually doing whatever it is that you need to do, whether it's like riding a bull or roping a steer or getting on stage and like performing or something. It's like once you're actually doing it and you walk up there, you have to have that attitude. I am the best.

Or I'm the best at what I do, you know, and I'm going to give my absolute best and I think I'm great at it. But then the problem is off stage. The problem is if you truly believe your own press, it can be Yeah, I don't know if that's all that good. Every time I in my mind thought that I was this or that or I immediately I'd get my ass slammed and you get reminded pretty quick that maybe sometimes you're not as good as you think you were.

Has Does has that only applied for you with riding or has that applied like in life, too? I think I think I think it's life. I think I think you learn you learn more and you get better by getting your ass kicked by than by winning. You know.

I mean for me it took me so long to get to the level that I wanted to be at. It was just such a long period of time. I had a I had a I think I had a little bit more of an appreciation for it than you know, the guys that are naturally talented that just they pick up whatever it is they're doing. You know, there's a lot of guys that have a lot of natural ability.

So you feel like you weren't really that naturally talented maybe compared to some other people. No, no, well, I don't think that, I know that. I mean, I started riding when I was four and I, you know, came up to junior and high school rodeos and you know, I loved I loved riding, but you know, I just sucked, you know, I just wasn't very good. Just didn't have a lot of didn't have didn't have a lot of balance, you know, I had plenty of desire and effort, but you know, I just was you know, if you watch me time and time me, you'd think maybe you should try something else.

You know, maybe you're not maybe you're not cut out for this kind of thing, but it's what I really wanted to do and it took till I was probably, you know, from time I was I sat on my first calf when I was four that he ran straight and didn't do a lot. I don't know that I made the whistle for a long time after that, but once I started a lot of it I think had to do with when I started breaking race horses and exercising galloping horses, I think I got I gotten a little bit better physically, you know, physical shape, but also maybe some balance and it was just kind of all coming together. You know, I knew what you were supposed to do when you get on, but you know, to me riding bulls, it's 8 seconds and it's more of a it's more of a trained reaction than anything and the only way I mean, the only way you learn how to do it and even get close to mastering is you know, by doing it. You know, you can watch all the videos you want, you can go to the gym, you can ride the bucking barrel, you can do all this [expletive] but the only way you learn how to ride is by riding.

And But you feel like that pretty directly translates to like breaking a cold I think it translates to life, you know. You're What I what I'd like most about bull riding is when you're successful and you won, it's your fault. When you suck and you're not successful, it's your fault. It's all 100% on you.

It doesn't matter where you come from, it doesn't matter you know, what color you are, how much money you got, you know, it's you and Zero excuses. Yeah. Zero. Yeah, well, I mean whose fault is it?

You know, that I mean it's kind of like they have the team events now and like I mean, I guess there's judges. There are judges, but uh the it's subjective, okay? But bull riding now in this day and age, the bulls are all so good. No matter who you are, what your name is, where you come from, if you make the whistle more than anybody, you're going to win more than anybody.

But that's been the case you know, Charlie Sampson in 1983 was the world champion bull rider, first black world champion from you know, the bad part of LA. And he won it because he simply made the whistle more than anybody else. You know, whoever rides the most consistently, they win the most and that's who ends up being the world champ. I mean, it's not that's not a secret.

That's been you know, again, it doesn't matter who you are, where you come from, it's a matter of what you what you can do. Well, so where did you where did you start like riding lope and race horses and Uh well, my dad worked around horse racing, you know, in El Paso, which would be Sunland Park, New Mexico, cuz they had parimutuel wagering in New Mexico and not Texas, so we would live in the winter in El Paso and the summer in Ruidoso, so I was a groom for racehorses from time I was 8 till I was 14 or 15 and then I started break breaking babies and galloping exercising horses. So, when I was in high school, people talk about their high school, their glory days. My high school was being to work every morning at 6 6:00 a.

m. 7 days a week and going to work. But and you know, in hindsight, that was the best thing for me, you know. I didn't have I didn't have any time or opportunity to you know, it if you have to get up at 5:00 5:30 every day, you don't go hang out all night and be an idiot, so.

It helped me in a lot of ways. What do you think it might have kicked the can down the road a little bit, though? Well, you know, it's uh Yeah, even at one time, because I was so small when I was 16, you know, I was 5'4 about 10, I thought I thought I might be a jockey and I grew up around all that. And uh riding racehorses like out of the starting gates with other horses, you know, it has the same adrenaline rushes as riding bulls.

And the only thing I can ever really compare that type of adrenaline rush is I got to fly an F-16 with the Thunderbirds at Cheyenne and actually had the stick on an F-16 for about 15 minutes and you talk about wow, cool mean the stick? I don't even know any enough about it to even how that's the control on a Really? F-16 Oh, so that's like the Yeah, it's like right here. Oh, okay.

you grab it and then What do you mean? So, you actually got to Yeah, no. He put me in a flight pattern, you know. And once you get to altitude flying an F-16 is easier than driving a car.

It's all It's all right here. That's what I've always told everybody, you know. They just won't believe me. It's by far and away the coolest thing I've ever done.

It was You drove it for a while. Yeah, you got put in a flight pattern. He said, "Hey, let's You want to do a loop?" I'm like, "Yeah."

"You know what that is?" I said, "Yeah, I think." He said, "Well, just pull back on it." So, that's I tried to pull back.

He said, "No, I said pull back." I was like, "Pull back." Just go up upside down. I'm going, "Yeah, do it again."

No way. Yeah, it's I mean, it's crazy. Like, when we first take off we take off to Cheyenne during the rodeo, right after rodeo. Take off right over the arena.

Go straight up for about probably 5,000 ft and then he just pulls all the power back and then he just kind of falls out of the sky. What's Oh, what's that feel like? It's just Oh. Just an incredible rush.

You like indescribable. And so, he just kind of falls out of the sky and then he kind of rolls it over and then we just take off and so, we're rolling along and he said, "Here, I'll show you what it can do." So, he just tips it up. We're flying that way.

And then goes upside down. We're flying We're upside down. And he says, "You know why we do this, don't you?" And I said, "No, sir."

He said, "Because we [expletive] can." And then he just rolls it back to the other side. So, he said, "Now, we'll give you a little hint just about what it can really do. How fast it can really go."

And he just goes wide open. He said, "Now, we're just uh traveling just a little faster than the speed of sound." And then he starts into all these maneuvers, and they you got about probably 3-hour kind of a little mini class about what to expect when you know, once you take off. And explaining how everything works.

You know, putting you in a flight suit. And they put you in compression. Uh your flight suit, you know, has compression pants and whatnot. So, you know, once you start pulling Gs to try to keep all the blood from running out of your head and losing consciousness.

And so, you have to learn how to breathe where you inhale a breath and you exhale only half of what you took in. Oh, you like did the real thing. You did the And so, yeah, you go And that's how you breathe. And that's the reason is to keep from passing out because, you know, once you start getting in some of the maneuvers and then and whatnot.

It just it's the force just feels like it just everything is just pulling you down and it's just crazy. Was he Was he walking you through it? Yeah, well, he was he told me all this, you know, explained all this on the ground before we ever, you know, took off. And when you first sit down with him and he starts to talk, the pilots I was actually supposed to fly with a it was a female was the pilot that I was supposed to fly with, and she wasn't she was she was sick that morning, so another guy did, but once they start talking, you know, the look in their eye, and once they start speaking, you realize they have a level of intelligence, and just to look in their eye, like these guys, you can tell right off the bat that this guy, he's the [expletive] at what he does, you know.

They Their physical condition is second to none. And but once they started explaining what you're going to do and how you're going to do it and how the how the how the how the jet had, you know, how it does this, how it does that, how it responds this and that, and you learn, I mean, you know, if this happens, you know, and we have to eject, and this is where you pull this, and it's just so you're just listening, listening, listening, and then once you get, you know, once you get in the air, it's uh And if you if you pull, I think it's like eight or nine G's, and you don't pass out, they give you they give you a pin, like a little pin, so I've got a little pin that I didn't pass out. Oh, that's a big deal, huh? Oh, yeah, huge deal.

Because what happens is So they say, "Yeah, if you pass out, you just you don't know, you just you wake up and you're like you doze off or something, but you know, I never did, and so but I know that uh right when we're taxiing to take off, my son, my little son, Lane, was with me, and the PR lady that was there, they were they were asking the people on the ground, say, "Hey, does um will he get sick?" And they say, "Oh, yeah, he Of course he'll get sick. Yeah, I'll get sick." But they tell you, you know, one of the things they say, "Hey, you know what?

Just in case you get sick. I'm sure you won't, but sometimes people do, but there's a zipper right here across your right kneecap. And there's a there's a plastic bag in there. So, if you get sick, just pull out the bag.

Make sure you throw up in the bag cuz you I mean, you've got a Yeah. Yeah, you got you got an oxygen mask and you should cuz the crew gets really pissed if you throw up in the in the mask and they got to they got to clean that up. And so, we're taxiing out and ask him, "Yeah, is he going to get sick?" And "Oh, yeah, of course he will."

But they don't tell you that because they don't want you to worry about it. Yeah. And I never I was I think of the we flew for about 40 minutes and I was good. Nothing I mean, nothing bothered me at all until we were we were about to land and we're take the mask off.

And as soon as I took the mask off and relaxed, it's like, "Holy [expletive] yeah." It's just Oh, then it's Because it you know, the just the deep portion all that you your body endures is it's not used to that. And so, I got I got a little bit sick before I got off, but when we got on the ground when we got on the ground and I climbed off and I when I when I stepped down, I could I could just barely stand up. It just takes every ounce of life you have.

It's crazy. Like I we had to walk probably, you know, 50 100 yards from the jet to the FBO and I could barely walk. My son nearly had to carry me nearly to there and when I got to the when I got inside, I sat down and I threw up for about 20 minutes. No kidding.

Yeah, just And then uh we had a I had a rental car cuz we come we'd flown into Denver and I mean, I got in the rental car, turned it turned it on, turned the AC up as high as I could, and just laid flat on my back, and I didn't move for about for about probably 3 hours. Just exhausting. So, your body was just Yeah. And these guys get used to that, I guess.

Yeah, I mean, like I said, when once you see them and you shake their hand, you I mean, they're as physically fit as anybody you'll ever see. Gosh, dang. And uh yeah. So, you're talking about getting on getting on bulls, and then flying one of those things is basically the two Are those the two biggest rushes Oh, yeah.

By far and away. But riding race horses, like Okay. Yeah, leaving the starting gate, you know, just like it would be in a regular race, you know, what they call as working horses with company, you know. It's kind of it's the same thing.

It's a it's got a pretty high level of wow factor. Yeah. And once you once you do that, it's you kind of want to kind of want to do it again, you know. I always say, you know, the first calf I got on when I was 4, I had the same feeling as the last bull I got on when I was 35.

It's just a it's just a rush of adrenaline, but you know, being able to figure out how to how to do it is um you know, so challenging, you know. Again, you know, I love riding bulls and whatnot when I when I was no good, but then when once I figured out that hey maybe I maybe I maybe I do have a chance to do this. And when I got to where I could ride then it's really fun because kept me kept me from getting a real job and you know, all the things that I've been able to do and places I got to go and people I got to meet, you know, I got I got to meet, you know, President Bush, you know, we had a President Rodeo in Houston and got to shake his hand and you know, he mentioned my name in his speech. So I went got to tell him he was riding a bull.

I'm like the free world just said my not my name. And I was younger then and you I appreciated a little bit more now, you mean then I was probably I don't know. Probably 25 or 6. Of course the president knows I mean I'm a big deal.

I never really I never really I never really had that attitude. It's kind of comical when you think yeah. Yeah, I know. It's yeah.

Well, that's an insane thing to Yeah, I mean growing up you never think you'd ever even close as you'd see the to the president on TV or in the newspaper. You never realize you'd actually shake his hand and he would actually know who you were. So Yeah, that's an of pretty exciting but you know, humbling as well, you know. I've always thought that's an interesting statement though.

Where it's like humbling. Well, I mean it just this guy's the leader of the free world and you're you know I know, but wouldn't that be the opposite of humbling? Do I look like a [expletive] dictionary? Well, I've struggled with that before where it's like Well, then you know, I You want to be humble I'll let you work on the language and grammar.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Cut and go back again.

I'll try to correct my You know, my dad used to tell me every now and then, you know, we might be [expletive] hillbillies, but we don't have to prove it. Yeah. There you go. It's one thing for you to It's one thing for everybody to think you're this or that.

It's another thing for you to open your mouth and prove it. And confirm it. Dude, being in the moment, like when you're talking about standing there and you got the president talking about your name, people will like they'll always say like you got to be in the moment. You really got to appreciate this moment right here.

But sometimes like appreciating it in the moment, it's almost impossible sometimes. Cuz like what if So for instance, like whatever you're at You got a big moment. You got the big spotlight. Uh you're going for it and people say you got to appreciate this moment.

You got to be in the moment. But like that in ways can psych you out. If you If you uh if you try to appreciate the moment too much rather than just responding to the moment. Does that make You know what I'm talking about?

I mean, I would I would really appreciate the moment when it's over and I won. Okay. So yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. It's easy to get ahead of yourself.

And you know, no matter what it is or what you're doing, you know, every everybody's wired different. Everybody kind of approaches things different and you know, you know, for me, um I guess the moment for me was whenever I succeeded. You know, because anything less than that meant that I sucked. So, would you ever try to take time to like look back on things and like really appreciate them?

Well, I appreciated the fact that this is what I get to do. You know, but I knew in order for me to do that, you know, you have to show up every day and be ready to go every day. You know, I think if I would have been an artist or maybe a big league, you know, I know a lot of MLB guys, you know, they don't have to do [expletive] except show up and I don't even think they even put their own socks on. You know, everybody does everything for them.

I don't. Is a cowboy Is a Is a cowboy Is a cowboy in a you know, bull rider in my era, you know, I had to be a travel agent, had to be you know, you had to do a lot of things to get from you know, I'm in I'm in Fort Worth today, I'm in Redding, California tomorrow, I'm in Calgary the next day. And the only way I got from point A to point B was me. Again, I had to schedule you know, I never I always traveled with good guys.

The one thing I always did, you know, especially early in my career is always had good guys to travel with. They kind of had similar had the same idea same goals that you know, we wanted to ride bulls and wanted to kick ass. We wanted to win. You know, we didn't let anything you know, interfere with that.

You know, you know, everywhere you go, just like you as a musician, every time you play a show it's a party. And so, it's easy to Okay. You're done. You go party.

Well, we I wasn't ever opposed to going out and having a beer or two or three or whatever, but more than likely at 5:00 or 6:00 a. m. I was up and on an airplane or and driving occasionally, you know, I flew a lot more than I drove just because you know, my rule of thumb was I would go wherever where the most money was and so long as you long as you won, you could fly. And I never was big on driving anyway, but um but there I mean, you have to do a lot of things.

You don't have a tour manager. You don't have you know when you walk on stage, your guitar's tuned, your sound, you know, whatever. As a as a bull rider or cowboy, you know, in my era and generation was you had to do all of that. You didn't have anybody baby-sitting you.

So, you had to have the discipline to Yeah, I well, you might want to stay and have a couple more beers and hang out with some buddies or do this that and the other, but bottom line was you had you had you had to be somewhere tomorrow. Or at least if you did, you were going to be the one that paid the consequences. Yeah. Yeah.

So, you owned it. Yeah. Yeah, and I never there's there's been guys that you know could have went a lot higher and further than they did they just either didn't have the desire or the or the discipline to you know stay focused to you know to get to where they had to be. So, when you So, when you're saying that you weren't you don't feel like you were maybe the most naturally gifted or talented guy.

What do what does it come down to then at that level cuz everybody's so good? It comes down to It just in simple cowboy terms, you know, whoever tries the hardest, whoever you know I would rather anything happen to me than get bucked off. And it would just you know I rode with some guy the guys I was rode with, you know, guys like Lane Frost, Jim Sharp, Clint Branger. You know I know Jim Sharp was a better bull rider than I was.

He was probably the best guy I've ever seen. Naturally, you know, he was a you know, naturally talented guy, but he could he could ride bulls that nobody could ride. I mean, when Jim Sharp came along nobody'd ever ridden 10 bulls in a row at the National Finals Rodeo. And over a period of 3 years, Jim Sharp rode 23 in a row.

Well, that's always my that's my fact of why I believe you know, why that he was the best guy. And I'm saying the best guy, you know, when everybody was at their best. You know he won two world championships because I just don't believe winning world championships and winning all day every day was as important to him as it was for me. I was consumed with that.

I wanted you know, I didn't get I didn't get tired of traveling. I didn't get tired of riding. It just never got old to me. You know, even you know, I rode professionally until I was 35, you know, I rode professional for 15 years.

Very few people are able to sustain a career that long. You know, and because it's such a physical such a dangerous sport that you know, a lot of times you know, you get beat down mentally or physically or a combination of both and you know, one day you wake up and you say, I either don't want to do it anymore or I can't do it anymore. Then what do you think there was some stuff that Was there stuff that you focused on mentally or things that you did? For me it was just getting on.

Getting on and riding. You just truly loved it. Yeah, absolutely. There was I got There was a guy named Jerome Robinson.

He was a Yeah, I think he made the national finals probably 10 or 12 times. Never was world champion, but a very He approached rodeo, you know, riding and even after he retired from riding became a you know, a rodeo an event producer. He's a very Everything he did was very methodical and he was a very He approached everything kind of from a business standpoint. And he was kind of a you know, I knew him like I knew who he was growing up and then I got to know him, got to be friends with him and when we started the PBR, he was the guy that I got to you know, produce our events.

Cuz he had he had been in you know, he'd been retired and but he gave me one of the best compliments I think that I've ever got from anybody. He said, he said, "You're the best I've ever seen at being in the moment." He said, "Because it doesn't matter if you're about to get on your bull or you're about to nod, you're all in. If you're at a radio station doing an interview or a television interview, you're in that you're in the moment.

You're not somewhere else. If you're at the bar, you're in you're in the you know, he said but when it comes down to You know, cuz even whenever you know, I You know, I rode you know, after I rode professionally for 10 years, you know, not that smart, but I knew that I wasn't going to ride bulls forever and you know, that's when we started you know, we started doing you know, a lot of standalone bull riding events were kind of popping up here and there and that's when we started doing we came up with the PBR and the whatnot. So, I started producing events while I was still riding. You know, I started producing events.

My first one was in 1993. And then, you know, I rode another I rode another 5 years after that. But being able to you know, ride and make sure that the announcers on you, you know, doing a lot of you know, because the more success you have, the more distractions you have. You know, if you win this or you win that, you know, you get you get opportunities to go do things to meet to meet different people, to get introduced to different just lots and lots of different things.

But and some and a lot of times that can distract you from your real job, which is making the whistle and winning. Uh and I was pretty good at whenever it came time for me to ride, I could more times than not would show up. And I think that's I think that's hard for I think it's hard for a lot of people because again, you when you when you first start out, nobody knows who you are, nobody gives a [expletive] who you are. And that's fine.

But again, once you win, there's just more opportunities and more things to do. Both good and bad. More opinions about you. More everything.

More of everything. And that's yeah, the funny thing about it is that I've always been a realist, you know, and so it Yeah, I take most of it pretty objective and honest with myself and what I'm good at, what I'm not and uh but you know, at the end of the day, when you when you're competing, you know, you got to be all in. Nothing else nothing else can matter. So that type of focus though, you have didn't you have how many siblings did you have?

I was the youngest of seven. Oh [expletive] I didn't know it was that many. Yeah. Yeah.

Damn. So there was a lot going on. Well, yeah. Yeah, it was there's a lot of plusses and minuses to being the youngest, you know.

Uh you don't ever get anything new. You don't have any baby pictures. You know, you But the positive is you don't have a curfew. You don't You know, because your parents like and I had coolest mom and dad in the world, but they're very blue collar, just good, hard working people.

But they were again, they were very objective and you can have whatever you want. Get off your ass and go get it. You know, my dad was a work 7 days a week and we never took vacations, we never had new cars, we every car that we got that was new, it was new to us, but it was probably 10 years old that you know, he was just a hard working, resourceful guy, but one of the coolest guys I've ever met. And so, like I said, I was young as a seven, and I was such a mama's boy that I didn't want to leave my mom to go to kindergarten, so I didn't go to kindergarten.

I just went with my mom to work. And like, that's the [expletive] that's the [expletive] you get away with when like if you're firstborn it's kindergarten, well, you're going to kindergarten cuz we're going to make you a human or we're going to make you this and that and the other. You also made a living out of holding your own, so. And parents realize after a few kids that you're not going to make your kids this or that.

They're individuals and they're going to be, you know, you try to encourage them and keep them between the lines, you know, because at some point in time, they're going to do what they'll they want to do anyway. You know, you just got to hopefully, you know, give them give them give them show them that it's better to be good than bad. I mean, you can and at some point in time, everybody makes a choice. You're going to be worth a [expletive] or you're not.

And you and you know what that is. And that's different for different people, but you know, you're either you're going to be a decent person or you're going to be a hoodlum that ends up in the penitentiary. So, do you Was there any defining moment where you had to ask yourself, "Am I going to be worth a [expletive] or not? No, I was always a good kid and because my older brother was a knucklehead.

My older brother didn't listen to much of anything that he was told. He was a good dude, but he just did whatever the hell he wanted and like my dad would whip him and I'm like I just looked at him and said, "Hey, yeah, I got I got if you if you act like that you're going to get you're going to get your ass whipped." So, growing up I had I usually had a job and made good grades in school and I didn't get in much trouble. I was I was a really good kid and I went to college and I discovered beer and uh females and probably had wasn't that good for a while.

But, when I went to college, I went to college on rodeo scholarship Mhm. Uh and most of my brothers and sisters didn't go to college, but I went, but Did you go to Sul Ross? I went to Sul Ross. I was I was the poorest college student in America, I guarantee you because you know, you get down there everybody's got their vehicle, truck, whatever they got for graduation.

My dad said, "I guess you can take that car that old car over there." It was a It was a 1960 Buick. This was a 1981, so it's like 20 years old and about a mile long. God, that thing was a beau- That thing was a tank.

Uh yes. And so, that's what I took to school, but you know, our first a month they get their allowance. You know, they parents take them down there, move them in. Our mom and dad say, "Good luck."

Which, you know, that's how we're just raised uh we didn't need them. They didn't, you know, you're good. You know what to do. But I used to I used to tell my older boys I'd say, you know, I don't want you to ever have to really experience, you know, every now and then you beat your buddies they go eat and you wouldn't eat because you didn't have any money.

You'd say, "No, I'm not hungry. I didn't eat." You're like, [expletive] I wish I had you know, grab a handful of fries on your way out. I mean, I wasn't starving to death by any means, but you know, I'd you know, I'd go day work.

The good thing about being at Sul Ross, you know, there's ranches all around there. So, I'd go day work on ranches and survive and go to college rodeos and you know, win enough to win enough to pay my fees and a little rent here and there and but now it's Whenever you have to whenever you have to perform to have enough money to leave town. Yeah, that's Yeah, so like you were already you didn't even know you were training your mind. Yeah, yeah, that's pressure whenever you have to you know, the first thing you do when you get to the college rodeo or any rodeo is that, you know, you go up and you pay your entry fees, whatever it costs to enter.

Well, most of college rodeos I when I when I first went to college I didn't I didn't have enough money to pay all my entry fees cuz I entered the bronc riding the bull riding the team roping and the steer wrestling. And so, I kind of had to befriend the lady that ran the secretary that she would let me pay my entry fees after the rodeo. So, meaning I had to win to pay to pay. And she would go like that, you know.

Cuz she knew, you know, I didn't And so every time with the exception of one time, I won enough to pay my fees. I had to borrow like I think 150 from a buddy of mine named Lane Foltyn in Lubbock, Texas one time. Do you remember the one time? Yeah, that was the only time that I didn't win enough to at least at least pay my fees, so.

But that's, you know, You have no option other than to work harder and get better. You know, when we go out and get on practice bulls, I'd get on three, four, five, six, and the guys that could ride pretty good usually wouldn't get on but one or two sometimes. Or any cuz, you know, they rode good. And they would always ask me, "Why do you get on so many?"

I said, "Cuz I'm not I'm not that good, and I'm I want to get better." No way I was going to get better was getting on. That's the only way. For me, it's the only way I could figure it out.

Again, I could tell you exactly what you need to do to ride this bull, particular bull. But can you do that? When I open the gate, can you process all the things I told you what you need to do? Not that hard to do this, this, and this.

You'll be good. Being able to just cuz you know how to do it doesn't mean you can do doesn't mean you can do anything. The only way The only way is to And you know, Tiger Woods I'm pretty sure learned how to hit golf balls by hitting golf balls. All day, every day.

Would you spend time visualizing, though? Oh, yeah. Yeah, that's all I thought about. That's all I thought about was riding.

Nonstop. I mean, I did I did pretty well in school, but I'd be When I was in school, I most of the time in school, I was riding bulls in my mind. I was I was making the whistle. Yeah.

Well, Sul Ross is the perfect place to do that. Yeah, and you know, it was uh the first 2 years I were was down there, we won the national championship. That was in the eight early '80s, and they hadn't done that since like the early '60s. So, there were there were always good guys around, and uh you know, it's always funner to be around guys that, you know, kind of have similar ideas or goals, and No question.

No, it's just funner, and you know, it kind of makes you, you know, it's motivating, you know, you don't want to be the only guy in your group that sucks, you know, whenever there's like me and Jim and Lane Clint Branger would be traveling. We kind of had a rule that if you got bucked off three in a row, that you can't you can't you can't hang out with us. You had to kind of go travel by yourself. Because we just we could we couldn't be hanging around guys like you.

You know, we So, I mean, there was always you wanted it was just again, it's you knew that they were going to be badasses. You knew that Jim Sharp, Lane Frost, something like you. They could ride them all day long every day. You didn't want to be the guy, well, those guys are really good, but that one, he sucks.

You didn't want to be that guy. Yeah. So, you feel like you feel like Jim Sharp was just Do you feel like uh he had the Who do you feel like had the most natural talent? I think probably Jim did.

Yeah. I think Jim if Jim he was so good I think if I think if he But you know, I don't know. That's just me guessing. I think if it if it was as important to Jim as it was to me that he would have won 5 6 7 8 9 10.

Cuz he rode so good. He rode his ridiculous easy. He never got hurt. Could you define uh when you say rode so good?

Well, he just did everything he just I mean he did everything pretty much fundamentally correct. He did it when you watch him it just it just looks effortless. And you know, he'll get on you know, back to what you said, you know it's judges that score, you know. But it's an opinion.

A judge is an opinion. A good judge agrees with you. A bad judge disagrees with you. That's you know.

But most of judges they have a similar opinion on what's good and what's not. You know, the thing about Jim he rode you know he made it look like it was nothing. And so a lot of times you know Lane or he may my might ride the same bull and be two three points higher cuz he just makes it look easy. He makes it look like the bull's not doing as much.

Wow. Yeah. But yeah. But it you know, he said he won he won a couple world titles and the one thing I do say about you know you always about going to gym, or out.

And I'm like, you know, takes seconds. How good of shape you really have to be in? I mean, but you I mean, you're not going to get I mean, you can look at a guy and see if he's in decent shape. Good shape, but the thing about riding bulls, it's not about strength at all.

It's more about It's more about reaction and being flexible than it is being strong. And so, Jim, you know, after you know, he'd won the world cup a couple times and he started going to the gym a lot more and working out and getting big muscles and stronger, but what it did is it just he got stiffer, he wasn't as flexible. And he wasn't near the bull rider he was, you know, in 19 you know, 90 95, 96, you know. Again, when you get as you get older, you know, you know, you're your skills diminish or whatever, father time, whatever you want to call it, but uh for him, he just got he just got so strong, so bulky.

He just he didn't move the same way and he went from being probably the best ever to being just a good I mean, a good bull rider, but not the best you ever seen. Yeah, sure. I saw There were There's not very many people that are able to sustain getting on day in and day out all day, every day, because it's a it's a lot. Mhm.

Is there anybody you know of that rode at your level for as long as you did? Who else? Oh, there were a lot of guys that um There I mean, there wasn't that many guys that rode the time I did that. You know, I rode, you know, I took off 1 year in '94.

I had neck surgery and at the end of '93. Uh and didn't ride at all in '94. Wasn't sure if I'd ever ride again. So, I then I came back and rode '95, '96, '97 and I landed on my neck in the in the spring of '98 at Odessa at the PBR event.

I blew another disc out and I'd already had I'd already had, you know, neck surgery and Dr. Freeman said if he has the same injury you know, level up that I would be Christopher Reeve or dead. So, that was the last time I rode. But, that was spring of '98.

I was in the lead in both the PBR and the PRCA at that time. I could still ride, but it was a lot harder. It was just more of a struggle to what? Ride ones that 5 years before that I would have rode easily, but Did the physical struggle start to impact you mentally though?

Did it become more of a mental struggle? No, it just became more of an annoyance to me. Yeah. Is it you feel like you feel like you're I mean, I always felt like I put out the effort, but you know, there was there was a period of time when the effort I knew I was putting out the effort, but it was easier.

Just become more of a struggle. Just harder to ride one that 5 years previously you had rode would not would not have just wouldn't have been that hard. you're So you kind of feel you feel it and so I knew that you know I knew that there's never a good time to quit to me. I mean everybody wants their John Elway, win the Super Bowl and retire.

But I mean gosh If I just won the Super Bowl, that means that means that means I could win another one. Yeah, that's a fact. Yeah, I would never I would never I would never have the ability to do that. No question.

For me it happened perfectly for me. I just knew that I knew I was done. Yeah. And you know and he said you have one more of these you're Chris Furry's you know sucking on a straw to turn your chair or your or you're dead.

And he said I know how much you love your boys and from that day on I that was fine. I was done and people always ask, you know, do you miss it and I don't I don't miss it at all. It was another time. It was uh you know, I did as long as I could as good as I could you know, and that's enough for me.

You know. There were I'm sure better guys but I'm you know I'm ended up with four world championships, you know. I got bucked off to win a couple more but back it back in those days it became a one bull major world champion or not. So yeah, I could have won more.

I could have won I could have won less. All I know for me I won as much as I could. Yeah, you won exactly as much as you were supposed to. And you know, like I said I can look back if I'd have done this yeah, I was never a big looking back what if what if, you know.

Whenever I blew the biggest lead, the first time I thought I should have won the world. I just choked. You know, I just and that I learned more from that than anytime I ever won. So, yeah.

Like I said, What was the get getting your ass kicked occasionally is a good thing. You Again, you don't really more times than not in life, you don't learn anything until it affects you. You know, people can tell you this and this and you can say, "Yeah, yeah, yeah." And then it happens to you and you say, "Got it."

Got it. You know, that was you know Yeah. So, There's no substitute for experience. Yeah.

What makes you feel like it was a situation where you choked? Well, I went in I went into the national finals the first year they were in Las Vegas and I had a $10,000 lead. This was in '85, you know. That's huge lead.

Yeah. And I rode the first five I got on five in a row and if I'd been over that day, I'd have won the world even back in I don't want the world by $40,000 probably. If I'd been over that. But over the next five rounds I only rode two out of five and got bucked off of I mean, an incredibly bad to ride one wasn't the one to have, but when I when I probably more times than not I would have rode him, but I didn't.

And just happened to be the one that cost me the world championship. You know, I'd led all year long. I'd been lead for 11 months and but what that what that taught me is, you know, you get to thinking ahead yourself and you think you got this. You don't you don't got [expletive] until you do it.

So, you feel like you were starting to tell yourself that story? Yeah. Yeah, well, I thought I'd already had it won. Yeah.

Yeah, I'm guilty of probably reading a little bit of my own press. Yeah. [expletive] I'm pretty good. Yeah.

And when I approved I wasn't that good at all. But I learned more from It made me better from that day forward. So, the next time, do you remember a next time that you started having that feeling again? Kind of buying your own press?

Well, every time I was I was aware of it happened to me at It probably one of the most critical times. So, it was It was always there. I knew it was there. Well, and okay, so the next time you had that feeling I knew I always had to show up.

I mean Yeah. So, you just would block it out after that. You were like, "No, screw that. it's done.

You just know you just know what you have to go and do. And you know, you prepare for that and you once you once you figure out how to do it, you just go do it. But again, there's no Yeah. There's never a time where you get to well, I finally made it.

And you get to I made it and now you can kind of relax a little bit. You make it until tomorrow. I know every successful person I ever talked to, it Tomorrow is when Yeah. Yeah, it don't matter what you do.

Everybody just talks about like loving the process. Yeah, no. It's it is. It's just you know, for me just getting to do what I got to do.

I got to ride bulls for a living. Hell yeah. The absolute coolest thing. And I never wanted my kids to do it and you know, if you ever if you really love somebody and you really care about somebody, you want them to ride bulls.

I mean, why would you? I mean, I and I would ask this question. I've had guy people ask me, "Well, why don't you know, your sons ride?" And I'm like, I guess cuz because they don't want to.

I said, I didn't I didn't encourage it, but I didn't discourage it. You know, if that's what they would have wanted to do, I would have helped them, you know. If you want to do it, nobody can keep you from doing it. If you don't want to do it, then nothing can make you do it.

But my question to somebody who asked me, "Why?" I'm like, "Well, how many people have died where you work doing the job that you do while you were at work?" Yeah. Yeah.

Well, for me, it's at least four. Four guys who were friends of mine. One of my best friends that die 20 ft in front of you. Not hurt.

6 ft under dead. No mas. So, if you really give a [expletive] about somebody, yeah. But it But if one of my If one of my sons, if that's what they chose, I would help them, and you know, for me, it was a cool thing.

I would I wouldn't trade it for anything. I always laugh at, you know, I always say I was the youngest of seven. I'm like, you know, my parents had to have the logic or mentality like, "Well, if we lose him, [expletive] we still got six." That would have to be because, I mean, the [expletive] that we that we did when we were kids like the bulls and you know, they just the things that we did and like it's just a different it's a different world.

saying, yeah. It's a it's a different world. I mean, for me, like I said, it was a I wouldn't have traded for anything. But, there's not very many people who actually, you know, who feel that way.

I mean, like my 10-year-old, he's one of the he's the kindest little human I've ever met, you know, and he thinks he wants to be a bull rider and I'm like, "Well, you don't like it when you get hurt. You don't like it when you bleed." "You're going to bleed and get hurt." So, he gets on one, he gets on a calf and he hits and knocks air out of him.

"I just It just hurts when I breathe." I'm like, "That's bull riding." I said, "I'm afraid you're going to you're going to be like a lot of guys that I see every now and then or I've seen over the years. You're going to like everything about bull riding except bull riding."

You like You like everything around it. You like all the Yeah, you like hanging out hanging out with the guys, hanging out with the hot girls. the attention. You like the Yeah, you like everything except I've always said, "Every Bull riding is a great idea till it's your turn."

And you think, "What the hell is that?" Really means it? Really? No.

You know, So, you just didn't get that same sensation team roping or riding broncs or anything? to ride broncs and I rode broncs pretty good. I filled my permit riding broncs. I'm about half pigeon-toed.

I never could turn my toes out very good. Oh, okay. And so, I couldn't beat the good guys. I was I was a good you know, I could have been I won good at circuit rodeos, you know, I won the college finals one time, but uh I just wasn't good enough.

But I but also it wasn't a right it wasn't as important, you know. I always wanted to ride bull riding was always So there was like a danger fear adrenaline factor to it big time. Riding broncs is like yeah, that's there's nothing to be afraid I mean yeah. No nothing I do love it though.

It's beautiful. Nothing like I love riding broncs and it was fun it's fun, you know, and you know, not that there aren't some injuries here and there, but yeah, the difference between bull riding and bronc riding is really not it's really not a comparison. No, no, no. Yeah.

You know, No, that's not what I was trying to say. the learning curve riding broncs you get beat up riding broncs. Once you figure it out it's kind of like I got this and it's fun easy it's not it's probably the least stressful event there is in all the certainly in the rough stock events and probably in the rest of them too, you know. It's fun it's a it's a fun cool event.

But you know, you're not you're you don't see the injuries, you know. You know, the things that can happen in bull riding that and even you know, I produce events all you know, that's what I've been doing since you know, Every night? Every night you see at least two, three, four guys that are 6 in away from dying. You see a you see a foot you see a hoof go right by their ear or grazed right by their yeah.

By their cha- and the vest is done, you know, it's saved a lot of guys from very serious injuries and even dying. But the vest ain't a hell of a lot. The vest does nothing if a bull's foot step right on your throat. Which can and has and will happen.

Like I said, after you see a handful of your buddies or guys just perish right in front of you, that's you see it a little differently, but it don't keep don't keep you from doing it. Does it make you more fearful? Um it can. It But you can't you can't really Again, everybody's wired differently.

You know, for me it was like the only way I could sell it to myself or justify it is that, you know, like all you got to do is make a good ride. If you make a good ride and get off under your own power, you're good. And beyond that, I'm going to die one of these days. I don't know if it's today.

[expletive] happens. I know. I'm always so envious [expletive] happens. And so you just have to tell yourself it's not that big a deal.

You just kind of have to downplay it, you know, like I said, everybody I know everybody's different in the way they approach and they see it and feel it or whatever, but for me it was like it was it was worth it's worth the risk, you know, because again, you're pretty much you're pretty much cheating death every time you do it. Yeah. And it's not that you have a death wish, but again, I'm a realist. Ain't none of us getting out of here alive.

If this what happens to me, hope not, but Well, you made it out of that one. Yeah. Yeah, I mean and I can show you I mean I can show you I've got pictures of I've got a picture we rode it at the Calgary Olympics in '88. I've got a picture of a of a bull that he has his horn and it looks like it's about to just go right in my temple.

Looks like it's just about to just spear me there and you know, I can show you videos where I hit the ground, you know, a foot comes right here or right here or right here and you know, you know, I've had some close calls and glancing blows and you know, you know, I had whenever I got hit in the face and had crushed everything from here down. 13 and 1/2 hours of reconstructive surgery. But [expletive] happens. May- it maybe could have been worse.

You it I could have been I mean that's a crazy thing to say. been carried out in a pine box, you know, and even like everything said that the face, you know, getting my face was it was like the worst thing ever and it was like it wasn't that big of a deal to me because it was it crushed every bone from here down, but you know, I wasn't even knocked unconscious. I mean, I remember I remember every bit of the bodacious ride like it was yesterday. I remember walking out and you know, I mean, it was a I know I know I got hit pretty hard.

I'm like [expletive] you know, I'm kind of kind of hesitate to get up in there, but I got up. I was as I was walking out, I was telling the guy next to me I said, I think I broke my I must have broke my jaw because when I bite down, my teeth don't touch together. And there's just blood just going everywhere. But and I'm walking down this little narrow alley between the where the where the bullpens are and the and the seats and the MGM war.

And I'm noticing the reaction of these people's faces. They're looking at me like, "Oh my god." And I'm like, I tell my buddy, I said you know, I'm must not look very good because I'm getting some Everybody's covering their eyes and whatnot. And so I started to walk up into the training you know, the training room where Dr.

Freeman and all the assistant sports medicine guys were. He said "Go get in the ambulance and go to the hospital." So I go down the in the grand garden area, they have like curtains whatever some back there where the ambulance is. Well, the ambulance was there, but the drivers had went back up to cover the board and cuz they thought I went to the to the to the sports medicine room.

So, I just sit down there and I remember I watch Troy Donahue ride. And as I'm sitting there I'm talking to my buddy, his name's Bill. I said, yeah, I said, "Hey, help me help me dig my contacts out of my eyes cuz I wear contacts." I said, "Because my eyes are swelling shut."

I could just feel my face just expanding. So, I dig my contacts out and they come and they put me on a stretcher. And I and I never really felt I'm I mean It really wasn't just It wasn't a real throbbing pain or anything until they put me on a stretcher and I laid back. As soon as I laid back it felt like somebody started hitting me in the head with a sledgehammer.

And then they gave me something and I woke up I woke up 2 days later and they'd done all kinds of reconstructive surgery. I mean, I didn't have a nose. They had to construct and they like put in like five titanium plates and all kinds of Anyway. And that was That was the middle of October and then the National Finals was 6 weeks later.

And then I came to the National Finals. I'd lost like 26 lb and I wasn't sure if I was going to ride or not. And then I asked Dr. Freeman if what he thought.

He said it's up to you. He said all this is all wired and screwed in. If you get hit it'll be no different than if you got hit you know without that. Yeah, it's going to mess stuff up, but if you like you're strong enough to It's your decision.

So I got on and in hindsight I maybe shouldn't have, but I still I rode and I was you know, I drew Bodacious you know, later that week and I didn't get on him because when I whenever he hit me I thought I was in good position right in the middle of him and I didn't think I could ride him if I tried to lean back and get away from that. He I thought he'd either hit me coming up or going down and so I did I didn't get on him, but I got on I got on nine. I rode five out of nine and wasn't the best in the finals, but I still won a little bit. Yeah, especially losing almost 30 lbs.

Yeah. I see that's where I'm just always fascinated about you guys. But it's It was uh The mental part of it. And you guys make things so simple.

Like all my rodeo buddies and uh you're obviously a legend, so you're in a different category in and of yourself, but I don't know. I'm a thinker obviously with song writing and the artsy-fartsy thing. So it's like my biggest struggle is just getting out of my own head. And I'm always fascinated cuz you all just make things sound so simple.

Even though it's the pinnacle of risk and stress. Well, yeah. I mean But maybe it is so black and white. That's what simplifies it to a certain degree.

Just get on or don't. Yeah. Yeah, it's Nobody gives a [expletive] about the details. Just You do it or you don't.

I need to hear more of that. You know. At the end of the day, as long as you know at the end of the day you know, I hated to get bucked off and I hated to lose. At the end of the day as long as I knew that I tried as hard as I could, I was okay with that.

I could always live with that. I can't I can't live with knowing I didn't put out the effort. So probably that was That was That was That was the most important thing to me all day, every day. It's okay It's okay to not win.

It's okay to get bucked off. It's okay to suck. You know, you just You didn't get it done, okay? It's not okay not to give every ounce of energy you have.

It's not okay to not try your hardest. Have you noticed culturally uh within maybe rodeo, have you noticed that there is a little less try? Or do you feel like I don't I don't see that. Okay.

I think that lot of guys my age are still mad cuz they're not riding. You know, or maybe they didn't get to where they wanted to or should have or whatever. You know, there were there were guys back in the day that didn't try that hard either. Sometimes.

You know? There's a lot of there's a lot of good guys, you know, and I'm Yeah. I think I've sat next to a lot of them at the bar. You know, it's Yeah.

Man, I used to You know, I did Yeah, I'm I try not to be the I try not to be that guy, but I'm I think you but I'm a but I'm a spade's a spade, you know? Yeah. If you tried hard that's and you didn't you didn't make it, that's okay. But if you're if you didn't try if you didn't give it every ounce of energy you had, that's not okay.

I totally agree. That's never okay. But you look at guys that are out there now. You've got some young guys coming up.

You know, bull riding's a young sport and you know, I don't think you're in you don't you won't not going to see guys that probably ride as many years at highest level as I did. You know, you will a handful, but you know, the bull they get on the bulls are consistently better every day than they were whenever I was riding. Um you know, you know, the bull the buck the hardest you know, in 1985 or 95 bucked as hard as you know, the bulls that buck hard today. But now Just all natural athletes.

every know, you don't you don't show up you don't you used to a lot of times when you weren't winning, it was like, well, you know, I drew a bull that was no good, you know. It's like putting a great jockey on a slow horse at the Kentucky Derby. He's going to lose, you know. Bull riding half of the sport half of the score is a bull.

And the bull is so good now. So, now you don't have the luxury of saying, "Oh, well, I just drew that." No. If you don't win now, it's cuz you didn't ride you didn't ride good enough.

You might not have the bull that you would like. You know, there's always one that might favor this person's style or that person. And that's what makes the difference of a guy like, you know, a Sage Kimzey or guy like, you know, Stetson Wright. You know, they don't have to have a bull that turns back into their hand or away from, you know, whatever fits their style.

The good guys, they can ride them all, whether they go left, right, or straight. And you know, there's I mean, there's a kid that, you know, you know, his dad was from Brazil. Uh his name is John Crimber. You know, he's a I think he's 19 now, maybe.

I mean, he's a He's a he's a He's a kid that, you know, he's a once-in-a-generation kind of kind of guy. If he can if he can stay healthy and he can stay motivated, you know. You know, there's kid named uh Noah Lee, Mike Lee, who his dad was a world champion. He just turned He just turned 18 this year.

Incredibly talented guys. There's always good guys coming up, and but I Yeah, I don't buy into the these guys these guys aren't as tough as we were. So, yeah. So, there's some are and some aren't, and but there were some of them were and some weren't Back in the day.

Yeah, man. A don't lot of people don't have very good memories, I guess. Yeah, maybe not. Maybe not.

Yeah. Well, shoot, man. Uh thank you for doing this. Yeah, thanks for having me.

Oh, yeah, this is great, man. I mean, we've obviously hung out a little bit, but never got to really sit down and chat. I keep up with you and I'm glad you're doing well. Yeah, you're it was it's always I'm a I'm a fan of anybody that's successful.

I don't give a [expletive] what it is, cuz it's hard to be successful at anything. At anything, you know? Yeah. Everybody wants to be this or that.

They're just not Everybody wants to do what it takes to be this or that. And that's why you can get people from all sorts of different industries, walks of life, and if they have some modicum of success at whatever that they do, you can get them all in the same room and they're going to There's going to be that understanding, like you've done some [expletive] that nobody knows about, when nobody was around, like and you worked at some things that you never got credit for to get to where you're at. Yeah. And that's, you know, it's like an unspoken thing with just successful people.

Yeah, well, the I'm not saying I'm not successful. successful people, you know, they're just a They just won't take no for an answer. You know, they just And it's different for everybody. You got to fig, you know, what works for one guy doesn't work for another, you know, it's kind of like, you know, you've been around It's kind of like breaking horses, okay?

Kids are the same way. You know, you might be able to scold one or slap him on the butt and that works fine for this one. You do that to the other one, might have the opposite effect. So, you just never know.

Everybody's different and once you, you know, they're just not a one-size one-size-fits-all. Well, I always appreciate you uh remembering me. You would You would came to uh my first album release party and Larry Joe put it together. And he had text me and he was like, "Hey man, Tough Heatman's going to come."

And I was Cute. I was like, "Are you have got to be kidding me?" He's coming out here? I'm like, "Why?"

going with that loser? Yeah, I'm like, "Why would he come to this?" So, anyways, we came out I still have that picture that we took at that deal. And then I you know, I'd seen you a handful of times after that just through the years.

You know, and I and I'm always like if somebody don't remember me, I'm not it's no sweat. Like I get it. And every single time I'd always go up to you and be like, "Hey man, I'm Jared, you know?" And you'd be like I know who you are.

I'm from New York. And I and I'm and I'm you know what? And I'm guilty of not remembering people's names and [expletive] sometimes. You know?

But Do you I don't think you probably You remember a gazillion you know, you meet a gazillion people and unfortunately, some people can remember a gazillion people, but I but I can't sometimes and I feel like [expletive] if I don't, you know, but once you meet so many people Yeah. No, it gets tough. Yeah. Yeah, but I always appreciated that.

The last time I saw you in Vegas just this past year, you probably don't remember this part, but I came up to you and I did it again and I was like, "Hey, I cuz I saw you across the casino." And I go, "Hey man, you know, I'm Jared, you know, I like Yeah, no, yeah. re-explained myself or and you go you go you go, "I know, [expletive] You're like, quit doing that. No, I know who you are.

I know who you are. Yeah. I know who you are. I've never not I've never not looked at you like, "I wonder who the [expletive] that is."

I know I know who you are. Yeah. You're like, "Quit. Don't do that again."

I go, "Okay, I won't do it again. That's the last time." Yeah. Well, I appreciate you always treated me, man.

Thanks for having me, man. Yeah. I'm good. Wake up and weep.

Go to sleep. Sing to sleep. Melody I